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#1 2010-04-19 22:16:53

Lucario621
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Registered: 2007-10-03
Posts: 1000+

BYOB 3 - Discussion Thread

===============================
=    The BYOB 3 Discussion Thread!   =
===============================

http://cs.berkeley.edu/~bh/gobol3.gif
Links:

-BYOB 3 Trailer (short) - Short trailer of what is to come to BYOB 3, and why the features were implemented. (scratch project)
-BYOB 3 Trailer (long) - A long trailer, displaying more in depth information about the different features of BYOB 3. (scratch project)
-BYOB Website - The main website where you can download BYOB for Windows and Macs, or just the tools sprite, image file, or manual (pdf). Plus it has some extra projects and links to tutorials  smile  (website)
-BYOB Bug Report Form - a form where users can report bugs, or suggest features (requires email address - so you can just report bugs or suggest features on this thread if you want). (website)
-Snap!—BYOB4.0 - an experimental version of BYOB 4

Last edited by Lucario621 (2012-04-25 17:56:41)


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#2 2010-04-19 22:35:31

illusionist
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Re: BYOB 3 - Discussion Thread

I NEEED IT! NAOW!

There need to be a way to upload BYOB projects to a BYOB website...  smile


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#3 2010-04-19 23:34:01

fanofcena
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Registered: 2008-07-03
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Re: BYOB 3 - Discussion Thread

Meeeeeee Toooooooooooooo :p


http://i53.tinypic.com/2vxr2c0.png Click whats above u might make a cute planet happy ^_^

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#4 2010-04-20 00:09:53

lonwol
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Registered: 2008-11-10
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Re: BYOB 3 - Discussion Thread

Looks cool


I host servers for money ya?

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#5 2010-04-20 00:17:36

fanofcena
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Registered: 2008-07-03
Posts: 1000+

Re: BYOB 3 - Discussion Thread

BYOB is always 1 step ahead of scratch  tongue

scratch 1.4 - byob 2.0
scratch 2.0 - Byob 3.0

with all the cool new features BYOB Will soon become a pros language for experimentisation


http://i53.tinypic.com/2vxr2c0.png Click whats above u might make a cute planet happy ^_^

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#6 2010-04-20 09:31:19

MathWizz
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Re: BYOB 3 - Discussion Thread

I Wanna Link!!!!!!!


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#7 2010-04-20 10:25:37

bharvey
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Registered: 2008-08-10
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Re: BYOB 3 - Discussion Thread

fanofcena wrote:

with all the cool new features BYOB Will soon become a pros language for experimentisation

Thanks to everyone for your interest in BYOB 3.

We are really hoping to /avoid/ the "pro language" situation, because we think it'll hurt the Scratch community if we split it into the experienced people using BYOB and the newcomers in the Scratch kiddie pool.  The entire community benefits from the way experienced Scratchers mentor newcomers.

This is why I've been working hard at convincing Mitchel and the Scratch Team that these features belong in main line Scratch!  We view BYOB 3 as a "proof of concept" that kids won't be frightened away even if they don't immediately "get" first class procedures.  (And I think a kid who isn't ready to write MAP can still learn to use it if a teacher provides it.)

There are just a few things left on the we-can't-let-it-out-the-door-in-this-state list.  Jens (who's doing all the hard work) is hoping for a release version within a week, but *that isn't a promise*! :-)

The final summer release will be even better.  Once you have the idea of first class data, there are lots more candidates: costumes, sounds, sprites, threads...  Some of those are technically very hard, but those are the kinds of things we're thinking about.


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#8 2010-04-20 10:33:19

fanofcena
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Re: BYOB 3 - Discussion Thread

bharvey wrote:

fanofcena wrote:

with all the cool new features BYOB Will soon become a pros language for experimentisation

Thanks to everyone for your interest in BYOB 3.

We are really hoping to /avoid/ the "pro language" situation, because we think it'll hurt the Scratch .....[removed cuz wsnt needed]

Well with that i meant a place to experiment code as i do it a lot with scratch and byob when writing a C Application or Java applet {these two pearls always are ma first choice to write a code for the first time}, scratch and byob has always been a sandbox for me both the languages are "O for awesome" and i totally understand your concern  smile  and am happy with the implementation of first class data well i wanted to suggest u guyz to make the default sprite of BYOB an interective helping sprite that teaches the new ones what first class data means  big_smile  that will be totally amazing cause that way they wont be confused if they find it in the given box  big_smile

Last edited by fanofcena (2010-04-20 10:34:16)


http://i53.tinypic.com/2vxr2c0.png Click whats above u might make a cute planet happy ^_^

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#9 2010-04-20 11:09:40

MathWizz
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Re: BYOB 3 - Discussion Thread

bharvey wrote:

Jens (who's doing all the hard work) is hoping for a release version within a week, but *that isn't a promise*! :-)

O_O w00t!!!!!!!!!!!! I WANT IT!!!!! MAKE IT A PROMISE!!!! J/k. lol I can't wait!


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#10 2010-04-20 11:14:19

BWOG
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Registered: 2008-09-19
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Re: BYOB 3 - Discussion Thread

fanofcena wrote:

BYOB is always 1 step ahead of scratch  tongue

scratch 1.4 - byob 2.0
scratch 2.0 - Byob 3.0

with all the cool new features BYOB Will soon become a pros language for experimentisation

If they went 1.4, 1.5, 1.6, and so on, BYOB for Scratch 2.0 would be 8.0.

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#11 2010-04-20 15:51:30

MathWizz
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Re: BYOB 3 - Discussion Thread

* bump *


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#12 2010-04-20 19:15:05

shadow_7283
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Registered: 2007-11-07
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Re: BYOB 3 - Discussion Thread

Why bump it? This program sounds REALLY cool, though I'd like it if someone tried to tell what "first class procedures" are in one or two syallable words. I'm sure I would understand the concept if someone took the time to explain it.

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#13 2010-04-20 19:16:44

Lucario621
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Registered: 2007-10-03
Posts: 1000+

Re: BYOB 3 - Discussion Thread

shadow_7283 wrote:

Why bump it? This program sounds REALLY cool, though I'd like it if someone tried to tell what "first class procedures" are in one or two syallable words. I'm sure I would understand the concept if someone took the time to explain it.

Did you see the full 20 minute project? It's in the description of the project which there is a link to in the first post....


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#14 2010-04-20 19:42:38

shadow_7283
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Re: BYOB 3 - Discussion Thread

Lucario621 wrote:

shadow_7283 wrote:

Why bump it? This program sounds REALLY cool, though I'd like it if someone tried to tell what "first class procedures" are in one or two syallable words. I'm sure I would understand the concept if someone took the time to explain it.

Did you see the full 20 minute project? It's in the description of the project which there is a link to in the first post....

I just saw it. Though I'd have to view it several times to make complete sense of it. I'm getting a vague idea of what it is, but I realize that I would have to try out BYOB 3 to be able to make full sense of first class procedures. I can't think of many practical uses for it that would help me in my games, but it would be cool to have a cloning feature, and a replacment for the irritating "broadcasts", as well as a feature to create a list on-the-spot. I just wish these features were implemented using simpler methods, such as the blocks Panther uses.

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#15 2010-04-20 19:45:04

soupoftomato
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Registered: 2009-07-18
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Re: BYOB 3 - Discussion Thread

shadow_7283 wrote:

Lucario621 wrote:

shadow_7283 wrote:

Why bump it? This program sounds REALLY cool, though I'd like it if someone tried to tell what "first class procedures" are in one or two syallable words. I'm sure I would understand the concept if someone took the time to explain it.

Did you see the full 20 minute project? It's in the description of the project which there is a link to in the first post....

I just saw it. Though I'd have to view it several times to make complete sense of it. I'm getting a vague idea of what it is, but I realize that I would have to try out BYOB 3 to be able to make full sense of first class procedures. I can't think of many practical uses for it that would help me in my games, but it would be cool to have a cloning feature, and a replacment for the irritating "broadcasts", as well as a feature to create a list on-the-spot. I just wish these features were implemented using simpler methods, such as the blocks Panther uses.

Yeah like run.
The scripts are supposed to be able to do that without being put into a block.


I'm glad to think that the community will always be kind and helpful, the language will always be a fun and easy way to be introduced into programming, the motto will always be: Imagine, Program, Share - Nomolos

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#16 2010-04-20 20:22:46

shadow_7283
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Registered: 2007-11-07
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Re: BYOB 3 - Discussion Thread

Also, what about other features Panther has that Scratch has been ignoring? Save and Read blocks? Advanced Mesh features? It may be an advance, but there are still some key elements missing.

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#17 2010-04-21 00:18:41

bharvey
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Registered: 2008-08-10
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Re: BYOB 3 - Discussion Thread

shadow_7283 wrote:

I'd like it if someone tried to tell what "first class procedures" are in one or two syallable words.

Okay, I'll try.  Imagine if you weren't allowed to use numbers directly in arithmetic blocks.  Instead of
[blocks](( 2 <+> 3 ))[/blocks] you'd have to say something like [blocks]<set{ two }to( 2 }>
<set{ three }to( 3 }>
(( <{ two }> <+> <{ three }> )) [/blocks]
Wouldn't that be a pain?  You're accustomed to the idea that you can plop a number down anywhere where it's meaningful.  But the situation above has been more or less how it is for lists and scripts.  You can't just plop a list down anywhere it makes sense.  For example, you'd like to know if a letter is a vowel.  If you first make a named list called VOWELS with the vowels in it, you could then use the CONTAINS block (how come no list blocks in this forum thingy?), but it would be /so much easier/ if you could just say
[[LIST <a> <e> <i> <o> <u>] CONTAINS <variable>?].  That's first class lists, which is a little easier to understand than first class procedures.  But it's basically the same idea.

Did that help?

Last edited by bharvey (2010-04-21 21:34:03)


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#18 2010-04-21 00:39:13

bharvey
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Registered: 2008-08-10
Posts: 1000+

Re: BYOB 3 - Discussion Thread

shadow_7283 wrote:

Also, what about other features Panther has that Scratch has been ignoring? Save and Read blocks? Advanced Mesh features? It may be an advance, but there are still some key elements missing.

Sure.  Jens can speak for himself on this, but I don't want BYOB, as a thing-in-itself, to take over the world.  I want /BYOB's ideas/ to take over the world, by being incorporated into Scratch itself.  (Why does it matter?  Because only Scratch has the Scratch web site and the Scratch user community, and even if we had the resources and the energy to duplicate their work, I think it would hurt everyone, young and old, experienced and beginner, to split the community that way.)

But about all those features:  Mitchel has been really reluctant to make Scratch more complicated, and (I think) for good reason.  For example, there are a bazillion things you can set but not query, and people have asked for each of those individually, and if they all got put in, the palettes would be infinitely tall!  So I see BYOB's job as finding a /few/ things you can add that have a /big/ payoff by /letting people write the missing things in Scratch itself/!  I mean, Scratch has REPEAT UNTIL and more often what I want is REPEAT WHILE, and yeah I can use a NOT block but that feels really convoluted, like a double negative -- but I don't have to ask for REPEAT WHILE, because I have Make a Block, along with first-class scripts!  As a Scratch programmer, not a Smalltalk programmer, I can have any control structure I want, if Scratch does things our way. :-)

Input/output things, like the file and network examples you mention, don't just decompose into procedures.  They do require an interface to the operating system.  (But last time I was at MIT I suggested to John Maloney that instead of a zillion I/O blocks, they could just add one FFI (foreign function interface) block that would allow the Scratch programmer direct access to the underlying platform, which will be Flash in Scratch 2.0.  With that one block, they would automatically allow the advanced Scratch programmer to write blocks that would do anything Flash can do!  Then what would happen is that people fluent in both Scratch and Flash would write Scratch libraries for their favorite hardware that other people could import into their own projects.)

(And, by the way, John's response was that that would be complicated because Flash's programming model relies heavily on callback procedures.  To which I just smiled and spread my arms, because if you have /first class scripts/ then callback procedures are a piece of cake!  See what I mean?  BYOB's job is to provide one super general mechanism that all you people with specific application-related needs can use to build the tools you need.)


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#19 2010-04-21 08:44:32

MathWizz
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Registered: 2009-08-31
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Re: BYOB 3 - Discussion Thread

bharvey wrote:

Input/output things, like the file and network examples you mention, don't just decompose into procedures.  They do require an interface to the operating system.  (But last time I was at MIT I suggested to John Maloney that instead of a zillion I/O blocks, they could just add one FFI (foreign function interface) block that would allow the Scratch programmer direct access to the underlying platform, which will be Flash in Scratch 2.0.  With that one block, they would automatically allow the advanced Scratch programmer to write blocks that would do anything Flash can do!  Then what would happen is that people fluent in both Scratch and Flash would write Scratch libraries for their favorite hardware that other people could import into their own projects.)

Flash! Something that I am fairly good at! That will be cool! Do you think it will ever happen?


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#20 2010-04-21 10:14:30

bharvey
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Re: BYOB 3 - Discussion Thread

MathWizz wrote:

Flash! Something that I am fairly good at! That will be cool! Do you think it will ever happen?

You'll have to ask the Scratch Team that one.  One problem: It would definitely put an end to any hope of Apple approval of iPhone Scratch.


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#21 2010-04-21 17:53:09

shadow_7283
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Re: BYOB 3 - Discussion Thread

Oh well. Thanks bharvey, for your explanations. I would love to see a Scratch in flash and online, but I would not make ANY sacrifices in speed for this. Scratch is slow enough as it is without having to deal with a bad internet connection.  smile 

So that brings me to my other question. Will BYOB 3 include any improvments in speed? What you're talking about with all the new ways that blocks can interact sounds like a disaster for anything less than a super computer.  wink

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#22 2010-04-21 17:54:46

shadow_7283
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Registered: 2007-11-07
Posts: 1000+

Re: BYOB 3 - Discussion Thread

bharvey wrote:

MathWizz wrote:

Flash! Something that I am fairly good at! That will be cool! Do you think it will ever happen?

You'll have to ask the Scratch Team that one.  One problem: It would definitely put an end to any hope of Apple approval of iPhone Scratch.

I don't really care for Scratch on the iPhone/iPod touch. It would hugely decrease the speed, and as I mentioned in my other post, I don't have any patience for that. I suppose that's the problem with my generation.

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#23 2010-04-21 19:49:42

demosthenes
Retired Community Moderator
Registered: 2008-02-19
Posts: 1000+

Re: BYOB 3 - Discussion Thread

shadow_7283 wrote:

Oh well. Thanks bharvey, for your explanations. I would love to see a Scratch in flash and online, but I would not make ANY sacrifices in speed for this. Scratch is slow enough as it is without having to deal with a bad internet connection.  smile 

So that brings me to my other question. Will BYOB 3 include any improvments in speed? What you're talking about with all the new ways that blocks can interact sounds like a disaster for anything less than a super computer.  wink

The new blocks will greatly increase speed because they allow you to do things much more efficiently.


I've taken a long hiatus, but I still visit sometimes. Give me some time to answer any messages you post on my projects!

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#24 2010-04-21 19:53:26

bharvey
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Re: BYOB 3 - Discussion Thread

shadow_7283 wrote:

Will BYOB 3 include any improvments in speed?

BYOB 2.99 will probably (there is a last-minute speed improvement coming, but since it's not here yet I don't know how much it'll help) be slow as molasses.  The reason is that Scratch lists are stored in a way that's tuned for iteration rather than recursion, which is the cleanest way to think about many problems once you can define procedures.  We should be back to at least traditional Scratch speed in the real release in August.  We have some ideas about how to make BYOB 4 a lot faster, but otoh we're hoping that there won't have to be a BYOB 4 because the Scratch Team will adopt the idea of first class data.


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#25 2010-04-21 19:56:05

bharvey
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Re: BYOB 3 - Discussion Thread

shadow_7283 wrote:

I don't have any patience for that. I suppose that's the problem with my generation.

Nah, the problem with your generation (I'm assuming from the context that you're young) is that you don't understand the need for privacy online, and cheerfully bare your every move on Facebook for future potential employers and the FBI to find.  smile


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