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#51 2011-07-10 04:33:57

scimonster
Community Moderator
Registered: 2010-06-13
Posts: 1000+

Re: Looking for examples of different types of remixing

andresmh wrote:

sci_test wrote:

What are you going to do with your favorite stories?

I'm going to write them down and publish them somewhere. I might also do some illustrations like the one above.

On the Scratch site?

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#52 2011-07-10 10:10:05

scimonster
Community Moderator
Registered: 2010-06-13
Posts: 1000+

Re: Looking for examples of different types of remixing

You should change the code in the announcement bar from

Code:

<div id="announcement">Scratchers are sharing their favorite remixing stories. <a href="http://j.mp/qGUKzL">Share yours!</a>  </div>

to

Code:

<div id="announcement">Scratchers are sharing their favorite remixing stories. <a href="http://j.mp/qGUKzL" target="_blank">Share yours!</a>  </div>

so that it opens in a new tab/window.

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#53 2011-07-10 10:22:20

Lucario621
Community Moderator
Registered: 2007-10-03
Posts: 1000+

Re: Looking for examples of different types of remixing

andresmh wrote:

I ran the comparator and it reported a bunch of  differences, which was surprising.  First, it reports a difference in the image size for "TitlePage" due to the edit you mentioned.  It also reports differences in the code, I think mainly because of changes in the values of the variables (I assume the person played the project and saved it with different values). Finally, it reports differences in the sounds despite being the same. These differences are likely caused by the compression algorithm. So automatically comparing it, does not help as much in understanding how similar this project is from the original. One might need some changes in the way Scratch works to do this more accurately.

Then, I tracked down the sequence of saves (to hard drive) and shares (to the website). This also followed a slightly unusual pattern for this type of remixing. It seems that the person downloaded the project and  saved it multiple times over the course of a full day or so, and then re-shared it. Saving multiple times to the disk is often correlated to making changes.  In other cases of cloning I've seen, especially when there's ill-intent, the re-sharing happens within minutes of the download.

Wow! Sounds like you have your work cut out!  tongue


http://i.imgur.com/WBkM2QQ.png

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#54 2011-07-10 10:24:03

Lucario621
Community Moderator
Registered: 2007-10-03
Posts: 1000+

Re: Looking for examples of different types of remixing

scimonster wrote:

You should change the code in the announcement bar from

Code:

<div id="announcement">Scratchers are sharing their favorite remixing stories. <a href="http://j.mp/qGUKzL">Share yours!</a>  </div>

to

Code:

<div id="announcement">Scratchers are sharing their favorite remixing stories. <a href="http://j.mp/qGUKzL" target="_blank">Share yours!</a>  </div>

so that it opens in a new tab/window.

I'm not sure if on the forum he's deliberately editing the HTML code though, or if he's simply editing the text on a control panel that forums like these sometimes have  wink .


http://i.imgur.com/WBkM2QQ.png

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#55 2011-07-10 10:28:55

scimonster
Community Moderator
Registered: 2010-06-13
Posts: 1000+

Re: Looking for examples of different types of remixing

Lucario621 wrote:

scimonster wrote:

You should change the code in the announcement bar from

Code:

<div id="announcement">Scratchers are sharing their favorite remixing stories. <a href="http://j.mp/qGUKzL">Share yours!</a>  </div>

to

Code:

<div id="announcement">Scratchers are sharing their favorite remixing stories. <a href="http://j.mp/qGUKzL" target="_blank">Share yours!</a>  </div>

so that it opens in a new tab/window.

I'm not sure if on the forum he's deliberately editing the HTML code though, or if he's simply editing the text on a control panel that forums like these sometimes have  wink .

It doesn't even show on the forums.  tongue

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#56 2011-07-10 11:45:36

treebark1313
Scratcher
Registered: 2011-05-23
Posts: 90

Re: Looking for examples of different types of remixing

That sounds pretty cool!


When life gives you 100 reasons to frown,
show life you have 1000 reasons to smile. - Unknown

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#57 2011-07-10 12:00:37

BoltBait
Scratcher
Registered: 2009-03-09
Posts: 1000+

Re: Looking for examples of different types of remixing

andresmh wrote:

BoltBait wrote:

Here is a straight rip of my latest game.

http://scratch.mit.edu/projects/isaiahellis/1912523

Notice how my name was erased from the title page and no other changes made.

This is a very interesting case. It made me reflect about some of  the issues around cloning that come up very often.

I ran the comparator and it reported a bunch of  differences, which was surprising.  First, it reports a difference in the image size for "TitlePage" due to the edit you mentioned.  It also reports differences in the code, I think mainly because of changes in the values of the variables (I assume the person played the project and saved it with different values). Finally, it reports differences in the sounds despite being the same. These differences are likely caused by the compression algorithm. So automatically comparing it, does not help as much in understanding how similar this project is from the original. One might need some changes in the way Scratch works to do this more accurately.

Then, I tracked down the sequence of saves (to hard drive) and shares (to the website). This also followed a slightly unusual pattern for this type of remixing. It seems that the person downloaded the project and  saved it multiple times over the course of a full day or so, and then re-shared it. Saving multiple times to the disk is often correlated to making changes.  In other cases of cloning I've seen, especially when there's ill-intent, the re-sharing happens within minutes of the download.

Guessing by some of the projects and comments the author has posted, it seems like s/he is quite young and it's definitely just getting started with Scratch.

So all this makes wonder what to do, if anything, about cases like this. I remember when I was little I used to copy the drawings of my favorite cartoons and show it to my friends. I used to do this on paper but this type of Scratch cloning seems like a similar case.

It's hard to know the reasoning behind this author's actions, but I wonder if something like this should be censored.  I've seen similar cases with sad outcomes. For example, sometimes the community gangs up on the remixer,  escalating into more serious flaming and tension that ends up banning the accounts of all the people involved.  Other times, it leads to self-exile by the newcomer who has transgressed the implicit norms of the community by remixing and claiming authorship. This is also a sad outcome, especially when it comes to a young newcomer who was startign to explore Scratch and perhaps even starting to understand the web.

I wonder what are better ways to react to this type of cloning so that a) the newcomer better understands the norms and, most importantly, help him/her explore Scratch in a way s/he is able to create more generative work; and b)  people whose work is being remixed stays content and does not feel like they are being "ripped off".

I feel like it's a learning process on all the parts involved that does not have an easy technical solution and requires more of a social infrastructure.

Thoughts?

One reason for so many changes is the fact that I never compress images and sounds when uploading my games.  As that option is on by default, the ripper won't realize it and end up compressing by accident... causing many changes.

Also, as you suspected, I reset all of my variables on "green flag" scripts.  So, playing the game then saving (or sharing online) may result in many variable changes that result in false positives when running your comparison software.

Here are my thoughts:

If your 7 year old gets caught shoplifting at the store, do you ignore it?

No.  If you do, they learn that "crime pays".

My recommend approach is to:

-Create a web page describing the proper way to create a derivative work.  In your first post you demonstrated knowledge of many different types of remixes.  Use that.  Also, use the remix stories you are gathering on the front page.  You may want to review a little about copyright and fair use.  Explain what is acceptable and what is not.  Use illustrations and write it at a kids level.
-Implement a mechanism for reporting ripping.  Perhaps, the "report this project" would work for this.
-Educate the mods on how to look for rips.  The comparison program is one tool, your brain is another.
-Remove offending projects and send a message to the ripper with a link to your page explaining the proper way to create a derivative work.

If you message me an email address I'll send you some info I wrote once for a class I taught on computer programming.  It covers copyright and fair use in the U.S. and is aimed at kids.


Animated sigs must be banned!
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#58 2011-07-10 12:56:52

andresmh
Scratch Team at MIT
Registered: 2007-03-05
Posts: 1000+

Re: Looking for examples of different types of remixing

BoltBait: Feel free to email me <andresmh-at-scratch.mit.edu> the info you wrote for that class. More importantly, it'd be great if the community as a whole (or those who care) would come up with a set of norms for guiding people, especially newcomers, on how to go about remixing. I think having it written by the community for the community would carry a lot more weight than something written by the Scratch Team or just by one individual. It'd be an evolving document of course. Perhaps this could be hosted on the wiki?

I am also very curious on why you think clones are "harmful" for creators like you. I understand when it comes to companies losing profit there's but what do you think it's the harm on a Scratch creator like you when one of your projects is cloned? Of course, I have my own theories but I'm very curious on what you reasons are for disliking it. I am partly wondering if this cultural or of it is an intrinsic feature of creative work.

Thanks for the insightful ideas you've shared so far!


Andres Monroy-Hernandez | Scratch Team at the MIT Media Lab
on identi.ca and  twitter

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#59 2011-07-10 14:37:22

scimonster
Community Moderator
Registered: 2010-06-13
Posts: 1000+

Re: Looking for examples of different types of remixing

andresmh wrote:

BoltBait: Feel free to email me <andresmh-at-scratch.mit.edu> the info you wrote for that class. More importantly, it'd be great if the community as a whole (or those who care) would come up with a set of norms for guiding people, especially newcomers, on how to go about remixing. I think having it written by the community for the community would carry a lot more weight than something written by the Scratch Team or just by one individual. It'd be an evolving document of course. Perhaps this could be hosted on the wiki?

I am also very curious on why you think clones are "harmful" for creators like you. I understand when it comes to companies losing profit there's but what do you think it's the harm on a Scratch creator like you when one of your projects is cloned? Of course, I have my own theories but I'm very curious on what you reasons are for disliking it. I am partly wondering if this cultural or of it is an intrinsic feature of creative work.

Thanks for the insightful ideas you've shared so far!

The Wiki is very useful.  tongue

Anyways, if you clone, it could get famous from your hard work, and don't get any credit.

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#60 2011-07-10 22:44:00

Lucario621
Community Moderator
Registered: 2007-10-03
Posts: 1000+

Re: Looking for examples of different types of remixing

andresmh wrote:

BoltBait: Feel free to email me <andresmh-at-scratch.mit.edu> the info you wrote for that class. More importantly, it'd be great if the community as a whole (or those who care) would come up with a set of norms for guiding people, especially newcomers, on how to go about remixing. I think having it written by the community for the community would carry a lot more weight than something written by the Scratch Team or just by one individual. It'd be an evolving document of course. Perhaps this could be hosted on the wiki?

I am also very curious on why you think clones are "harmful" for creators like you. I understand when it comes to companies losing profit there's but what do you think it's the harm on a Scratch creator like you when one of your projects is cloned? Of course, I have my own theories but I'm very curious on what you reasons are for disliking it. I am partly wondering if this cultural or of it is an intrinsic feature of creative work.

Thanks for the insightful ideas you've shared so far!

One way I look at this is from Youtube. There, many videos go viral, and often the video is copied by other users. However to my knowledge, the "other users" don't get as many views as the main author, thus it doesn't make a big difference.

However this could be considered a bad comparison, since some people might say that people on Scratch are more proud of their work and are more frustrated when their work is copied/cloned as shown in this discussion. And of course the community has older people that are at least slightly more aware of remixing and copying stuff and the results of it.

andresmh wrote:

Perhaps this could be hosted on the wiki?

We have a wiki?  yikes  Awesome!


http://i.imgur.com/WBkM2QQ.png

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#61 2011-07-11 04:19:15

-GizzardGulp-
Scratcher
Registered: 2010-03-05
Posts: 100+

Re: Looking for examples of different types of remixing

My project: http://scratch.mit.edu/projects/-GizzardGulp-/1805044 could fall under the category "inspired by other's creations because I was inspired by this project: http://scratch.mit.edu/projects/wildplayer/1159810


http://i1118.photobucket.com/albums/k607/Max_Levine/SnoutmolStudios.png

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#62 2011-07-11 06:36:12

Potatochips
New Scratcher
Registered: 2011-06-13
Posts: 3

Re: Looking for examples of different types of remixing

Hi guys, I don't know what your saying, i just felt left out, so.... hi? big_smile  big_smile  <3

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#63 2011-07-11 12:55:45

scimonster
Community Moderator
Registered: 2010-06-13
Posts: 1000+

Re: Looking for examples of different types of remixing

Um, I just got this message:

Admin Messages wrote:

We encourage remixing in the Scratch community, since we have seen how remixing can lead to creative, interesting projects. The website includes a "Based on..." link to give credit to the original author -- and we hope that remixers will also give credit in their Project Notes. Overall, we want the Scratch community to be full of creative activity and exciting projects, and remixing helps with that.

I think it's because I flagged a clone of my project.
But as stated in the Scratch FAQ,

Scratch FAQ wrote:

What if someone copies a project without changing anything?
    It is disrespectful to upload a project that was created entirely by someone else, with the intention of taking credit or causing confusion about who created the project. If you see such a project, please flag it as inappropriate and include a link to the original project with your explanation.

I did...

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#64 2011-07-12 21:36:15

Chrischb
Scratcher
Registered: 2008-07-24
Posts: 1000+

Re: Looking for examples of different types of remixing

scimonster wrote:

Um, I just got this message:

Admin Messages wrote:

We encourage remixing in the Scratch community, since we have seen how remixing can lead to creative, interesting projects. The website includes a "Based on..." link to give credit to the original author -- and we hope that remixers will also give credit in their Project Notes. Overall, we want the Scratch community to be full of creative activity and exciting projects, and remixing helps with that.

I think it's because I flagged a clone of my project.
But as stated in the Scratch FAQ,

Scratch FAQ wrote:

What if someone copies a project without changing anything?
    It is disrespectful to upload a project that was created entirely by someone else, with the intention of taking credit or causing confusion about who created the project. If you see such a project, please flag it as inappropriate and include a link to the original project with your explanation.

I did...

Lol that happens all the time, I guess you have to be more cruel in your explanation? xD

Last edited by Chrischb (2011-07-12 21:36:26)


I fall: It's a tragedy. You fall: It's comedy.
Hmph enjoy your fall - I get a lovely spring... without pans of new leaves.

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#65 2011-07-13 04:28:35

tomer765532
Scratcher
Registered: 2011-07-13
Posts: 1

Re: Looking for examples of different types of remixing

יש כאן מישהוא ישראלי ?

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#66 2011-07-13 04:36:13

scimonster
Community Moderator
Registered: 2010-06-13
Posts: 1000+

Re: Looking for examples of different types of remixing

tomer765532 wrote:

יש כאן מישהוא ישראלי ?

יש פורם לעברית כאן.

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#67 2011-07-14 23:56:04

andresmh
Scratch Team at MIT
Registered: 2007-03-05
Posts: 1000+

Re: Looking for examples of different types of remixing

scimonster wrote:

Um, I just got this message:

Admin Messages wrote:

We encourage remixing in the Scratch community, since we have seen how remixing can lead to creative, interesting projects. The website includes a "Based on..." link to give credit to the original author -- and we hope that remixers will also give credit in their Project Notes. Overall, we want the Scratch community to be full of creative activity and exciting projects, and remixing helps with that.

I think it's because I flagged a clone of my project.
But as stated in the Scratch FAQ,

Scratch FAQ wrote:

What if someone copies a project without changing anything?
    It is disrespectful to upload a project that was created entirely by someone else, with the intention of taking credit or causing confusion about who created the project. If you see such a project, please flag it as inappropriate and include a link to the original project with your explanation.

I did...

I don't know about the specifics of the project you flagged but clones are not inappropriate by default. There clone has to have the "intention of taking credit or causing confusion about who created the project." So if the clone didn't fit that criteria, it is not censored. Again, I don't know what project you flagged.


Andres Monroy-Hernandez | Scratch Team at the MIT Media Lab
on identi.ca and  twitter

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#68 2011-07-15 01:13:50

sci_test
Scratcher
Registered: 2011-06-22
Posts: 100+

Re: Looking for examples of different types of remixing

andresmh wrote:

scimonster wrote:

Um, I just got this message:

Admin Messages wrote:

We encourage remixing in the Scratch community, since we have seen how remixing can lead to creative, interesting projects. The website includes a "Based on..." link to give credit to the original author -- and we hope that remixers will also give credit in their Project Notes. Overall, we want the Scratch community to be full of creative activity and exciting projects, and remixing helps with that.

I think it's because I flagged a clone of my project.
But as stated in the Scratch FAQ,

Scratch FAQ wrote:

What if someone copies a project without changing anything?
    It is disrespectful to upload a project that was created entirely by someone else, with the intention of taking credit or causing confusion about who created the project. If you see such a project, please flag it as inappropriate and include a link to the original project with your explanation.

I did...

I don't know about the specifics of the project you flagged but clones are not inappropriate by default. There clone has to have the "intention of taking credit or causing confusion about who created the project." So if the clone didn't fit that criteria, it is not censored. Again, I don't know what project you flagged.

This is the clone.
This is my original project.
The ONLY THINGS CHANGED were the title and notes (which were misspelled according to Google Translate lol).  I ran the remix comparator and did a visual test.
I'm not given credit in any language.

There was a topic about this user ripping off projects, and

Paddle2See wrote:

If you feel that the project is an exact copy, or that credit is being inappropriately claimed, you should flag the project as inappropriate and it will be reviewed by the Scratch Team.

That is exactly what I did.

I remember BoltBait said earlier on this thread that there was a user who ripped off projects.  mrheihei seems to be doing the same.  sad


[signature removed - please be respectful]
Last edited by scimonster (1970-01-01 00:00:00)

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#69 2011-07-15 09:00:43

eventexception
Scratcher
Registered: 2011-04-08
Posts: 500+

Re: Looking for examples of different types of remixing

I really really wondered why 1000+ viewers DID NOT REMIX  sad
this lately featured flight sim
http://scratch.mit.edu/projects/DanielSchulz/1872280

Remixers could color this game, add targets to shoot at or whatever!

The minor remixes translating seven words do not count to me.
One remix tried to lure users to a domain outside Mit.edu 
i think to grab user and browser data
(see  privacy.net/analyze-your-internet-connection )

And i really wondered about three pages of comments with little new input or suggestions.

Users could color this game, add targets to shoot at or whatever!

So my point is, do many scratchers resist remixing?
Maybe there should be more encouraging to remix!

Or a help (?) button behind the word remix for further encouraging!  big_smile

...from topic: Looking for examples of different types of remixing
  we need a new sub topic:
     sad  ´HELP - i was ripped but my comment was TLDR by others´  sad

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#70 2011-07-19 20:58:41

BoltBait
Scratcher
Registered: 2009-03-09
Posts: 1000+

Re: Looking for examples of different types of remixing

andresmh wrote:

BoltBait: Feel free to email me <andresmh-at-scratch.mit.edu> the info you wrote for that class.

File sent, as promised.

Enjoy.

BoltBait  cool


Animated sigs must be banned!
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#71 2011-07-22 04:39:52

eventexception
Scratcher
Registered: 2011-04-08
Posts: 500+

Re: Looking for examples of different types of remixing

Do many Scratchers resist remixing?

There should be more encouraging to remix!

Or a help (?) button behind the word remix for further encouraging!   cool

...from topic: Looking for examples of different types of remixing
  we need a new sub topic:
      roll   ´HELP - i was ripped but my comment was TLDR by others´   roll

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#72 2011-07-22 08:32:22

Trekkie210
Scratcher
Registered: 2010-08-04
Posts: 500+

Re: Looking for examples of different types of remixing

I like fixing remixing. It's fun to remix someone's project to make it more efficient, or to fix glitches! You  can combine scripts and stuff. It can also be a challenge to fix more complex projects, and it feels rewarding when you finish. ^-^


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#73 2011-08-21 12:45:47

mulus_equum_amat
Scratcher
Registered: 2008-09-10
Posts: 94

Re: Looking for examples of different types of remixing

I would say I've done mostly self-remixing, component remixing, and restructuring in the past.  I've also done some crowd remixing.  I have had people clone remix one of my projects before.  I think people do it mostly just to get views.  The only project I've made that ever got really popular is the only one I've seen people clone remix.  If you look at the remixes for Poll- Favorite U.S. State, you'll find that, of the ones that other people made (for some reason it counted some of my updates as remixes, even though they aren't separate projects), half of them are clones, one is a component remix, and one is an idea remix.  I think people must like to clone popular projects because they want more views, but it really never gets them anywhere, so I wouldn't worry about them getting credit for my work.


Staudeey da feesh!    tongue

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#74 2011-10-15 14:43:36

eventexception
Scratcher
Registered: 2011-04-08
Posts: 500+

Re: Looking for examples of different types of remixing

Realized SELECTED examples of Blob8108 3D Plane Game Remixes :
http://scratch.mit.edu/static/icons/gallery/140586.png
http://scratch.mit.edu/galleries/view/140586

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#75 2011-10-15 16:23:23

blob8108
Scratcher
Registered: 2007-06-25
Posts: 1000+

Re: Looking for examples of different types of remixing

eventexception wrote:

Realized SELECTED examples of Blob8108 3D Plane Game Remixes :
http://scratch.mit.edu/galleries/view/140586

This took forever to do. In all, there were more than 100 remixes to go through.

(I hadn't seen them before, because the "new remix" notifications appear to be broken...)

To summarise:
Several people hadn't changed anything. A lot of people had just changed the plane sprite. About 15 people, out of 100, had changed something significant: re-themed it, changed more of the sprites. One or two people changed the actual levels in the game, to create something new (this being the best example).

Last edited by blob8108 (2011-10-15 16:23:44)


Things I've made: kurt | scratchblocks2 | this cake

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