Scratch

WindozeNT wrote:

How's this for an Anti-Namco Rick-Roll:
http://i33.tinypic.com/28k0pcy.png

There is a virus on there! Just make it the youtube rick-roll or something. Those site's aren't safe.

zawicki1fromyoutube wrote:

They don't have the right to shut scratch down, but as I have said before, they have 100% full right to removing any Namco-related projects. There is no fair-use of their things unless it is a parody, or is used for educational reasons. Is it that hard for you people to simply ask Namco if you can use their images and music and such?

Scratch is AN EDUCATIONAL SITE.  Fair Use applies. If someone were to hire a lawyer and fight back I'd bet 99% they'd win.  There's no use arguing.

Well, tensions are running rather high here now, isn't it?

The issue here is whether or not the doctrine of Fair Use applies here, and if Namco Bandai really has a sensible case against the Scratcher who uploaded a Pac-Man project. I'd write a whole thing on this matter, but Locomule already has one written (see here) so well that it hits the nail straight on the head:

Locomule wrote:

The following is an overview of Fair Use and in no way is intended to completely define it. Indeed, many factors come into play and ultimately only a judicial decision matters in the end. However, the following may provide  good insight into why many people, possibly including the Scratch Team, believe that Namco was wrong.
_____________________________________________________________
The fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include:

1. the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
2. the nature of the copyrighted work;
3. the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
4. the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.
___________________________________________________________________

The issue seems to come down to a single question...
Which is more important, the educational value of Scratch users being able to learn by copying PacMan OR the potential money thet Namco stands to lose from people playing the Scratch version of PacMan instead of buying Namco's PacMan.

I think it should be pretty obvious by now what a lot of us think.

Of course, there are more sides to this, such as the abundance of other projects based on copyrighted games and programs that can surely be found amongst the tons of Scratch projects available.

One of the main issues also is that in order to claim fair use, you must give credit to the copyright owner, Namco. I would think that considering the nature of Scratch, a best solution would be a generalized statement on project pages, linked from Scratch's front page, or something similar. Expecting  every kid who creates a project based on an old game or pice of software to include a fair use statement is simply impractical and unrealistic.

Lastly, I am no lawyer and besides, I always try to remember that I could be wrong about anything. I am not even remotely tied to Scratch in any official way, I am just another Scratcher. Please don't think that I represent the Scratch Team, other than hopefully in spirit.

I believe that this is ultimately about something far bigger than the issue of the blocked Scratch project. This is about the challenge of remodeling copyright laws in such a way that protect companies while allotting for the modern free exchange  of ideas and data over the internet. When PacMan was created, the internet did not exist. This extends far beyond Namco, or even gaming into other realms such as music, movies, etc.

Expecting outdated laws to still fully apply in the wake drastically different technology available to people around the world is simply ridiculous. The laws do not need to be thrown out, but amended and improved. Likewise, businesses need to change their profit strategies not only for their own good but also for the benefit of their customers. No easy task, hence all the foot dragging and pointing of fingers.

Once upon a time, they could rest assured that they had a monopoly on the physical distribution of their products but clearly, that day has sailed. More than likely, nothing will change any time soon. Namco is only interested in money so if this works out against them, they will change their strategy. I think they could stand to increase both their reputation and profits by reversing their stance and supporting both Scratch and its philosophy of free education for the masses. Instead of simply wringing more loose change from what is essentially a dead horse, they could use this opportunity to shine a new light onto the milestone genius of PacMan and honor its rightful place in history.

For one of my patently silly exaggerated examples, in order to fly, you must have a license. But if we woke up tomorrow and discovered that people grew wings overnight, would you seriously expect them not to fly? You could not ticket them fast enough to stop the sky from filling.

That is where we are at this moment, and one of the reasons that I do not think we should back down from this assault. You Scratchers are the ones who will decide how this all plays out in the future. Arm yourself with knowledge, remember to be empathetic of each other, and follow your hearts. You never know how much something you create, such as a simple little game, might impact the lives and futures of people all over the world!

Cmodude wrote:

zawicki1fromyoutube wrote:

They don't have the right to shut scratch down, but as I have said before, they have 100% full right to removing any Namco-related projects. There is no fair-use of their things unless it is a parody, or is used for educational reasons. Is it that hard for you people to simply ask Namco if you can use their images and music and such?

Scratch is AN EDUCATIONAL SITE.  Fair Use applies. If someone were to hire a lawyer and fight back I'd bet 99% they'd win.  There's no use arguing.

No. Just because it is an educational site doesn't mean the project is educational. It has nothing to do with the website. If it was a story on the history of pac-man, or anything else that is educational for someone it is fair use. I've studied this stuff alot, and I know what I'm talking about.

allosaurus wrote:

scratch_yoshi wrote:

Would you guys SHUT UP ABOUT WHAT I SAID!? I was just trying to defend Namco-Bandai. I don't care if they can't shut Scratch down, it WAS infringing copyright, also known as plagarisingm, and it's ILLEGAL, and it deserved to be removed!!!!!!

I really wish people wouldn't start arguments and make up stuff that is completely false, and yell and tell people to shut up when they share their opinion and try to tell the truth.

Sorry for getting mad. I was completly wrong and everyone was right.... Sorry again. I hope I don't do that again. ...Sign me up....

Please add me, sorry, I just found this post.

Thanks cheddargirl for the re-post and your comments! After reading this whole thread, I'll re-iterate a few things...

Scratch is an educational website. It is geared towards young people, many of whom prefer to learn programing while making games (me too btw.) Copyright laws are designed to protect companies. The Fair Use law is designed (among other things) to allow educators to do EXACTLY what Scratch does, use copywritten material for educational, non-profit purposes. The argument is not about whether Namco has a legitimate copyright claim, of course they do. It is about whether Namco violated our Fair Use rights by demanding the project to be removed on the grounds that they are losing profits due to people playing it. They put that in their letter.

Think of school classes. What kind of English class would you have if no copywritten books could be used or mentioned? What kind of Science class would exist if we had to avoid copywritten chemicals, scientific texts, testing procedures, etc? Fair Use is not to used defy copyrights but to allow them to exist. If you make something that is so popular that it becomes part of our culture, can you seriously expect students NOT to copy it in a classroom environment? Think about that.

Sorry to go off tangent from the orginal topic, the list. You can find more about my thoughts on the educational benefit of using PacMan in my posts...

Scratch PacMan revealed (aka my guide on making a Scratch PacMan project

several posts I made including the one cheddargirl posted above, also the "main" post about all of this

my incomplete PacMan project made as mentioned in my PacMan revealed post above

Last edited by Locomule (2010-08-29 13:57:44)

zawicki1fromyoutube wrote:

WindozeNT wrote:

How's this for an Anti-Namco Rick-Roll:
http://i33.tinypic.com/28k0pcy.png

There is a virus on there! Just make it the youtube rick-roll or something. Those site's aren't safe.

And your proof? Something in the HTML code that's a "virus"? I can always remove the virus code and upload as a mirror. BTW, just because it shows messages when you close it doesn't mean it's a virus, it's just a few print commands. I was able to close it under 30 seconds by quickly clicking OK. Plus, Namco would deserve it anyway. Also, Youtube Rickrolls are so boring and are easy to close and block.
WindozeNT

16Skittles wrote:

zawicki1fromyoutube wrote:

Cmodude wrote:

FAIR USE!!  I repeat, FAIR USE!  We, as Scratchers, are entitled to Fair Use rights because it is used for educational purposes. The only reason Namco can do that is they no that almost no one on Scratch can, or will, defend them.  I'm not talking about petitions, I mean no one can or will defend with lawyers and everything.     None of us HAVE that kind of money, we're just kids. (mostly)

     They do not EVER have the right to shut Scratch down.  Not even the GOVERNMENT can shut Scratch down. (With current laws.) I repeat once again, the fair use law protects us.  It is our friend.  It says that it does NOT infringe copyright because it is for non-commercial, educational purposes.  And Namco will NEVER have the right to shut Scratch down.  If they can't shut Youtube down, they DEFINITELY can't shut Scratch down.

Summary:  Fair Use protects us and Namco can't shut us down.  The only reason they did this is because they know we won't be able to strike back.

I support.    Add me.

They don't have the right to shut scratch down, but as I have said before, they have 100% full right to removing any Namco-related projects. There is no fair-use of their things unless it is a parody, or is used for educational reasons. Is it that hard for you people to simply ask Namco if you can use their images and music and such?

But I don't believe they are using their images, either. what kind of peoron is to lazy to make a circle and erase part of it? if the do, shame on them. 

You're on your on, Zawiki1.

zawicki1fromyoutube wrote:

scratch_yoshi wrote:

16Skittles wrote:

But I don't believe they are using their images, either. what kind of peoron is to lazy to make a circle and erase part of it? if the do, shame on them. 

You're on your on, Zawiki1.

Uuuuh...what?

You're the only one saying that. I wanna be back on the list.

Bump. Sorry.

I just made a project about this, so go read it and support it.

coolboy2009 wrote:

I just made a project about this, so go read it and support it.

EPIC SIGGY!