Scratch

littletonkslover wrote:

soupoftomato wrote:

Lightnin wrote:

Illusionist is wearing two hats at once - moderator, and Olympic organizer. The two seem to get tangled up in this argument.

http://www.jamescalder.com/Favourite-Im … WYeu-M.jpg

Just Lightnin' the mood. I might not work because I am not an illusionist. If I knew how to play DaGamez I could do this better. I wish I could bharvey, he's awesome at this.

Sorry, but we all needed that.

It's not so funny the second time XD

I know, but the image is.

And what's that smiley in your post?

littletonkslover wrote:

soupoftomato wrote:

littletonkslover wrote:

It's not so funny the second time XD

I know, but the image is.

And what's that smiley in your post?

What? >.>

That, my friend, is an "XD"-y. This is a smiley.    The image of evil....

Yes, but you XD-ied.

Jimmy-Jermaine wrote:

Please Read the entire post below completely, anyone who's involved in this Olympic Mess. Thank you.

soupoftomato wrote:

Anyone who breaks the terms of use solely by themselves should be removed but never an entire team.

In the iamrpk case, if I had known the immature act he was trying to pull, I would have stopped him in a heartbeat.

As for the Aurochs, remove The-Stranger, but not the whole team. And then for the rest of the olympics we can be more relaxed.

I agree with this post. This is what I was trying to achieve. If we had ahance to, we would've stopped our team mate from doing whatever he did too. What exactly was it that he did anyhow? In a normal situation I wouldn't expect someone to tell me nor would I ask, but in this case, it is relevant for me to know. Just how major or minor of a problem was it?

illusionist wrote:

Sure, that might have worked before blade and lon did what they did; Iamrpk asked to be disqualified instead of giving your team a penalty, but Muldova's members decided to dive right in and scream at authority - causing the whole team to be in violation of the ToU. Which of course, got the entire team booted.

What did Blade and Lonwol do? We "Screamed against authority?" You decided to disqualify our team right off the bat while you gave Team America a chance. We thought this was unfair, so we tried to give reasons for you to change your mind, and then you changed your reason for disqualifying us to because we argued against you?! Screaming at authority, which we weren't even doing, should not be a violation of the ToU if the authority was in the wrong or being unfair. Could someone actually post a copy of the ToU here in these arguments? Yes I called them arguments because that's what you've turned them into Illusionist. I'm pretty sure Screaming at Authority is not written in the ToU unless they somehow changed it this past week!

illusionist wrote:

Everything works out logically.

..What? No it doesn't! Not at all! You are not using logic or common sense! Please post the posts that Blade and Lonwol made while they were 'disrespecting you and shouting at authority'. If you meant my suggesting of you being replaced as the Hoster of The Olympics, this was because you were doing it wrong. Read Boinoinoi's post for more information.

soupoftomato wrote:

Shouldn't screaming at anyone be violation of ToU?

Or are my civil rights no longer existent?

This is almost correct. Moderators shouldn't be the only ones who are protected by the ToU, infact they shouldn't even be this much. But from these posts I take that disagreeing with any moderator means that you are Violating the Terms of Use! WHAT IS THIS CORRUPT SYSTEM? This shouldn't be how it is at all.

These next few quotes gave me quite a chuckle. No, not because I think this is all a joke, but how wrong they are.

illusionist wrote:

Yes, but to authority is more serious.

No it isn't. And if it is, no it shouldn't be. It should be the same for everyone. What happened to treating people equally? What happened to common sense?

illusionist wrote:

Think of it like a little kid yelling at his/her sibling's, and then at the parents.

I'd think disrespect to a parent is more nasty right?

Oh what, you think you're the parent? This example is invalid. A parent would have the best interest for it's child, and they would probably be RIGHT ABOUT WHAT THEY'RE DOING. You're trying to ban us from a contest just because we disagreed with your disqualifying of us. You even accused us of cheating! What was that about? You still have given no proof or evidence.

soupoftomato wrote:

Is the parent yelling?

illusionist wrote:

No, the parent is trying to maintain sanity and work it out as well as solve the world economic crisis.

No you are not! If you truly were trying to maintain sanity you would've just dropped our team disqualification instead of resorting to call us cheaters while we tried to change your mind after The Stranger incident, and then you decided to change the reason for our disqualification on the fact that we 'yelled at authority' as you said.
Economic Crisis? This is hardly the time for jokes, Illusionist. If this is not a joke, please explain what you're talking about because frankly this is irrelevant.

soupoftomato wrote:

Does the kid have a valid point?

illusionist wrote:

No. The kid forgot to read the whole story.

Ha! I could in fact use this wording against you, because this is what you've done yourself Illusionist. We of course did have a valid point AND we did read the full story. Please give me evidence of anywhere that I haven't seem to have read the whole story. If you are referring to the Japanese Team not being disqualified, I STILL DO NOT HAVE PROOF THAT THEY WERE SIGNED UP BEFORE THE 23RD. PLEASE GIVE ME SOME IF THERE IS ANY AND I'LL THINK ABOUT DROPPING MY ACCUSATIONS 

boinoinoi wrote:

Didn't Jimmy multiple times say that his capital letters were a way of implying emphasis rather than increased volume? And the other members backed up Jimmy rather than "screaming" at you, not to mention that saying a disagreement with a moderator is worse than a disagreement with a normal member is just outright wrong... although moderators are chosen to protect Scratch from a disrespectful community, that doesn't mean their quarrels are more significant and that they should be treated any better than anyone else. Not to say that it would be in a bad way, but that one shouldn't have to think if the one they're arguing with is a moderator or not.

And about the original issue, you should note that many countries use an "ex post facto" type of law, meaning that laws passed only take effect to what happens afterward, i.e someone performing a legal task would not be effected if the practice was banned while they were doing it, meaning changing the rules to fit your argument would not help you.

Have you read this illusionist? Have you really read it and understand it? Then you should agree to change your decision on the case of the Moldovian Aurochs.
Also I hope this is a lesson to everyone, DON'T AUTOMATICALLY ASSUME SOMEONE IS SHOUTING AND ANGRY BECAUSE THEY USE CAPSLOCK. IF NECESSARY, ASK HOW THEY MEANT THEIR TONE TO SOUND WITH RESPECT    YOU KNOW WHAT THEY SAY ABOUT ASSUMING DON'T YOU? 

illusionist wrote:

boinoinoi wrote:

Didn't Jimmy multiple times say that his capital letters were a way of implying emphasis rather than increased volume?

I wasn't really referring to that- I mean't "screaming" more like "insulting", "uncivilly questioning", "disrespecting"... etc.

As the old saying goes, Screenies or it didn't happen. Of course it happened and it is in the moderator only forum at the time, but that's no reason you can't take screenshots or copy and paste words to show us of Blade and Lonwol's miscreanting and Paddle2See's 'post which explains everything'. I did in fact read Paddle's post, but it didn't really resolve anything or explain a lot, though I might possibly not be remembering it correctly.

And could another moderator or Scratch Team member please validate that the words are in fact true? It's not that I don't trust illusionist, but it would be very favourable to him to change around a few posts here and there. Also I'm sorry to keep repeatedly bothering the Scratch Team with these problems. Like in real life, the Olympics are a real hassle.

illusionist wrote:

Really, insults to anyone is bad, but on these forums, the rules against insulting authority seem to be more enforced.

(don't ask me! I didn't write the rules!)

Where is the proof? How many accounts of insulting authority have there even been? There's no reason it should be enforced more and even then it would be unwritten. And you say 'Don't ask me, I didn't write the rules!'. Where exactly are these rules? Post them for me please   
'Rule #28 - Insulting a member, warning'
'Rule #29 - Insulting a Scratch Team Member or Moderator - BANNING OR SEVERE WARNING'
Something like this? This rule should be erased and rewritten if it does in fact exist and is like this.

joe-joestar wrote:

@Jermaine-Jackson- take a few.... hundred chill pills.

How relevant to the conversation and completely not disrespectful or rude. 

Please carefully look over my words and also could someone not ask Illusionist to ignore it again? I thank you for reading this far, it was a long post. I hope my questions are answered and you should know that I mean no disrespect at all to anyone in the above post, and if you feel that I am being disrespectful, I am sorry.

I completely agree with this post. Also illusionist. Just because your a moderator doesn't mean everything against you is more serious then against a user. Just saying your a moderator is just a simple word. It doesn't reallly give you anything except some power over a forum. Your still a user, except you just have more power then others would. The ToU isn't more "Serious" For you.

lonwol wrote:

Jimmy-Jermaine wrote:

Please Read the entire post below completely, anyone who's involved in this Olympic Mess. Thank you.

soupoftomato wrote:

Anyone who breaks the terms of use solely by themselves should be removed but never an entire team.

In the iamrpk case, if I had known the immature act he was trying to pull, I would have stopped him in a heartbeat.

As for the Aurochs, remove The-Stranger, but not the whole team. And then for the rest of the olympics we can be more relaxed.

I agree with this post. This is what I was trying to achieve. If we had ahance to, we would've stopped our team mate from doing whatever he did too. What exactly was it that he did anyhow? In a normal situation I wouldn't expect someone to tell me nor would I ask, but in this case, it is relevant for me to know. Just how major or minor of a problem was it?

illusionist wrote:

Sure, that might have worked before blade and lon did what they did; Iamrpk asked to be disqualified instead of giving your team a penalty, but Muldova's members decided to dive right in and scream at authority - causing the whole team to be in violation of the ToU. Which of course, got the entire team booted.

What did Blade and Lonwol do? We "Screamed against authority?" You decided to disqualify our team right off the bat while you gave Team America a chance. We thought this was unfair, so we tried to give reasons for you to change your mind, and then you changed your reason for disqualifying us to because we argued against you?! Screaming at authority, which we weren't even doing, should not be a violation of the ToU if the authority was in the wrong or being unfair. Could someone actually post a copy of the ToU here in these arguments? Yes I called them arguments because that's what you've turned them into Illusionist. I'm pretty sure Screaming at Authority is not written in the ToU unless they somehow changed it this past week!

illusionist wrote:

Everything works out logically.

..What? No it doesn't! Not at all! You are not using logic or common sense! Please post the posts that Blade and Lonwol made while they were 'disrespecting you and shouting at authority'. If you meant my suggesting of you being replaced as the Hoster of The Olympics, this was because you were doing it wrong. Read Boinoinoi's post for more information.

soupoftomato wrote:

Shouldn't screaming at anyone be violation of ToU?

Or are my civil rights no longer existent?

This is almost correct. Moderators shouldn't be the only ones who are protected by the ToU, infact they shouldn't even be this much. But from these posts I take that disagreeing with any moderator means that you are Violating the Terms of Use! WHAT IS THIS CORRUPT SYSTEM? This shouldn't be how it is at all.

These next few quotes gave me quite a chuckle. No, not because I think this is all a joke, but how wrong they are.

illusionist wrote:

Yes, but to authority is more serious.

No it isn't. And if it is, no it shouldn't be. It should be the same for everyone. What happened to treating people equally? What happened to common sense?

illusionist wrote:

Think of it like a little kid yelling at his/her sibling's, and then at the parents.

I'd think disrespect to a parent is more nasty right?

Oh what, you think you're the parent? This example is invalid. A parent would have the best interest for it's child, and they would probably be RIGHT ABOUT WHAT THEY'RE DOING. You're trying to ban us from a contest just because we disagreed with your disqualifying of us. You even accused us of cheating! What was that about? You still have given no proof or evidence.

soupoftomato wrote:

Is the parent yelling?

illusionist wrote:

No, the parent is trying to maintain sanity and work it out as well as solve the world economic crisis.

No you are not! If you truly were trying to maintain sanity you would've just dropped our team disqualification instead of resorting to call us cheaters while we tried to change your mind after The Stranger incident, and then you decided to change the reason for our disqualification on the fact that we 'yelled at authority' as you said.
Economic Crisis? This is hardly the time for jokes, Illusionist. If this is not a joke, please explain what you're talking about because frankly this is irrelevant.

soupoftomato wrote:

Does the kid have a valid point?

illusionist wrote:

No. The kid forgot to read the whole story.

Ha! I could in fact use this wording against you, because this is what you've done yourself Illusionist. We of course did have a valid point AND we did read the full story. Please give me evidence of anywhere that I haven't seem to have read the whole story. If you are referring to the Japanese Team not being disqualified, I STILL DO NOT HAVE PROOF THAT THEY WERE SIGNED UP BEFORE THE 23RD. PLEASE GIVE ME SOME IF THERE IS ANY AND I'LL THINK ABOUT DROPPING MY ACCUSATIONS 

boinoinoi wrote:

Didn't Jimmy multiple times say that his capital letters were a way of implying emphasis rather than increased volume? And the other members backed up Jimmy rather than "screaming" at you, not to mention that saying a disagreement with a moderator is worse than a disagreement with a normal member is just outright wrong... although moderators are chosen to protect Scratch from a disrespectful community, that doesn't mean their quarrels are more significant and that they should be treated any better than anyone else. Not to say that it would be in a bad way, but that one shouldn't have to think if the one they're arguing with is a moderator or not.

And about the original issue, you should note that many countries use an "ex post facto" type of law, meaning that laws passed only take effect to what happens afterward, i.e someone performing a legal task would not be effected if the practice was banned while they were doing it, meaning changing the rules to fit your argument would not help you.

Have you read this illusionist? Have you really read it and understand it? Then you should agree to change your decision on the case of the Moldovian Aurochs.
Also I hope this is a lesson to everyone, DON'T AUTOMATICALLY ASSUME SOMEONE IS SHOUTING AND ANGRY BECAUSE THEY USE CAPSLOCK. IF NECESSARY, ASK HOW THEY MEANT THEIR TONE TO SOUND WITH RESPECT    YOU KNOW WHAT THEY SAY ABOUT ASSUMING DON'T YOU? 

illusionist wrote:

I wasn't really referring to that- I mean't "screaming" more like "insulting", "uncivilly questioning", "disrespecting"... etc.

As the old saying goes, Screenies or it didn't happen. Of course it happened and it is in the moderator only forum at the time, but that's no reason you can't take screenshots or copy and paste words to show us of Blade and Lonwol's miscreanting and Paddle2See's 'post which explains everything'. I did in fact read Paddle's post, but it didn't really resolve anything or explain a lot, though I might possibly not be remembering it correctly.

And could another moderator or Scratch Team member please validate that the words are in fact true? It's not that I don't trust illusionist, but it would be very favourable to him to change around a few posts here and there. Also I'm sorry to keep repeatedly bothering the Scratch Team with these problems. Like in real life, the Olympics are a real hassle.

illusionist wrote:

Really, insults to anyone is bad, but on these forums, the rules against insulting authority seem to be more enforced.

(don't ask me! I didn't write the rules!)

Where is the proof? How many accounts of insulting authority have there even been? There's no reason it should be enforced more and even then it would be unwritten. And you say 'Don't ask me, I didn't write the rules!'. Where exactly are these rules? Post them for me please   
'Rule #28 - Insulting a member, warning'
'Rule #29 - Insulting a Scratch Team Member or Moderator - BANNING OR SEVERE WARNING'
Something like this? This rule should be erased and rewritten if it does in fact exist and is like this.

joe-joestar wrote:

@Jermaine-Jackson- take a few.... hundred chill pills.

How relevant to the conversation and completely not disrespectful or rude. 

Please carefully look over my words and also could someone not ask Illusionist to ignore it again? I thank you for reading this far, it was a long post. I hope my questions are answered and you should know that I mean no disrespect at all to anyone in the above post, and if you feel that I am being disrespectful, I am sorry.

I completely agree with this post. Also illusionist. Just because your a moderator doesn't mean everything against you is more serious then against a user. Just saying your a moderator is just a simple word. It doesn't reallly give you anything except some power over a forum. Your still a user, except you just have more power then others would. The ToU isn't more "Serious" For you.

my, this is a sticky wicket isn't it?

They are right though, in this case I guess the people you were arguing were defending themselves against some accusation. I can't see how that is bad, after all you aren't supreme ruler of the universe, so you do have to listen to their testimony, and make an unbiased opinion.

maybe next time there's an olympics, maybe a panel of users should host it, instead of a single user.

Well. I think this is all messed up. The olympics might be closed if it's not stopped... 

Blade-Edge wrote:

fg123 wrote:

Well. I think this is all messed up. The olympics might be closed if it's not stopped... 

That would be unfortunate, but it would probably be for the best if a person can't run them the right way.

Oohhhh snap!

fg123 wrote:

Well. I think this is all messed up. The olympics might be closed if it's not stopped... 

What's messed up... 

I'm seriously spending more time on the computer programming nowadays than foruming...

So... What's messed up?

iCode-747 wrote:

fg123 wrote:

Well. I think this is all messed up. The olympics might be closed if it's not stopped... 

What's messed up... 

I'm seriously spending more time on the computer programming nowadays than foruming...

So... What's messed up?

Team Maldova's one member got banned for some reason and then Illusionist declared that the whole team might be banned.
Then illusionist changed the rules AFTER the registration deadline.
Maldova got VERY angry and members showed a lot of disapproval and anger at the decision and the rule changes.
Illusionist then BANNED the ENTIRE team stating lack of enough members, when they had a reserve member in place (ME    ) if the banned member was not allowed to participate.
AND THIS CAUSED THE WHOLE LOT OF ANGER AND ARGUMENTS FROMBOTH SIDES

Subh wrote:

iCode-747 wrote:

fg123 wrote:

Well. I think this is all messed up. The olympics might be closed if it's not stopped... 

What's messed up... 

I'm seriously spending more time on the computer programming nowadays than foruming...

So... What's messed up?

Team Maldova's one member got banned for some reason and then Illusionist declared that the whole team might be banned.
Then illusionist changed the rules AFTER the registration deadline.
Maldova got VERY angry and members showed a lot of disapproval and anger at the decision and the rule changes.
Illusionist then BANNED the ENTIRE team stating lack of enough members, when they had a reserve member in place (ME    ) if the banned member was not allowed to participate.
AND THIS CAUSED THE WHOLE LOT OF ANGER AND ARGUMENTS FROM BOTH SIDES

This is partially correct. Team Moldova, the Moldavian Aurochs' member The-Stranger was banned a few days ago. He was still signed up on the team though. Nobody knows what he did, but I heard that it was something minor. Illusionist, the host of the event, decided the whole team would be disqualified from the contest because of this one member getting banned. This was before the Registration Closed. We, the members of the Moldavian Aurochs, tried to persuade Illusionist to requalify us. There was no anger present, just a little frustration. Illusionist also came with the claim that we had cheated somehow (Proof or evidence has still not been given) and that we had broken several of the contests rules already. Our attempts to change his mind was taken very negatively by him (The comments were or are being reviewed, though I have faith that there's not really anything bad in said comments) and he then claimed we had broken the Terms of Use by opposing him. Meanwhile, Team Japan was under some pressure from Illusionist, as they had not yet found their final member. They attempted a treaty with the Koreans, but it was not done officially. On the Moldavian Team however, we had a Substitute for our rowdy member The-Stranger (Subh, nicely ironic name by the way    ). The day shifts and the Registration Ends. The next day, the Aurochs wake up to find that new rules have been added. There is now a rule that states that Teams will only have a penalty instead of total disqualification if their teams have not been assembled yet. This was an act that lacked fairness to any of the Olympian Contestants besides the newly formed Japanese-Korean Merger Team. Another new rule was that violating the terms of use was cause for heavy reductions in points or total disqualification. Illusionist used the previously mentioned rule to put the Aurochs out of the Olympics for good claiming that by opposing him, we were breaking the terms of use because he was of course a moderator and someone of authority. These false terms ended the Aurochs' run in the contest, and let Team Japan-Korea participate instead. After a long struggle, and with the help of many allies, we have finally overcome this unfairness and we will hopefully be placed back in the running for the Olympic Prize. This was not an argument, nor was it an angry battle, and Illusionist could barely respond to our claims because they were in fact true, so let's not make this out to be some kind of fight. It was merely a civilized debate.

I also read that someone figured that the whole Olympics should just be shut down since it is causing such a big mess. I believe that this is actually not too far off from happening as there has been lots of tension, lots of anger against the Newly Added Rules and the fact that Team Japan-Korea is competing with a late entry, and lots of stress for everybody involved. The Scratch Team was repeatedly called into action over this matter the past few days, and frankly I think they shouldn't put up with this annoyance. If there was proper hosting being done, we wouldn't have had to bother them, and we could have resolved this issue amongst ourselves. They're busy people. They're not fooling around like we are, they are working to help children be introduced to programming at early ages. They could be furthering their progress and working on Scratch 2.0 instead of dealing with these Olympic Games. If they decided to cancel the contest now, I would be all for it. They would have my support because I'm tired of this drama. But then again, a lot of hard work has already been placed into projects, and a lot of effort was placed into solving the problems. We have spent a lot of time trying to resolve these issues concerning the Olympics, and we surely wouldn't want that to go to waste. That is why I would also support the Olympics staying open equally as much as I would be for shutting it down. No, I am not taking a neutral side here, I am saying my honest opinion. If we truly want to inconvenience the Scratch Team one more time we can have them have the final say regarding the survival of the Olympics, or we can wipe our noses and take a step forward to stop and resolve all of the problems ourselves. We're all mature young adults here, aren't we?

Finally, regarding Team Japan: If it's alright with everybody, I have seen that Japan has put a lot of effort into uniting themselves and working on some projects. I am not saying they shouldn't feel the consequences of being late, after all it is a valuable real life lesson and experience they might have in the future, but this is after all just a Kid's Competition to see who can use a fun programming tool and create a piece of programming. How about we have some sort of vote to see if they can participate or not? That seems like the only logical thing to do to avoid any more tension and unnecessary drama, and the Terms of Use practically strictly encourages us to use our common sense. This is using our common sense. If enough people agree to this voting idea, Illusionist, who I'm sure will have no trouble doing this as he was favourable to Team Japan before, can organize a poll that runs until the end of today Scratch Time, to determine if Team Japan can compete. If you support the idea of there being a poll, please say 'Friend of Team Japan'. I will leave the number of 'Friend of Team Japans' being said to allow the Japanese Team to be placed into a poll where we will determine if they can join or not up to you guys and your common sense. Of course in the Official Poll, if it gets created, only people judging or Participating in the Scratch Summer Olympics 2010 should be allowed to Vote.

Friend of Team Japan.

How is my name IRONIC ??      

Last edited by Subh (2010-07-25 09:48:07)

Lordy, these are some long posts.    JJ, I appreciate that you've invested a great deal of energy in summarizing your point of view, and proposing solutions.

I'm not sure the Team Japan issue needs a vote - it seems fair that they be allowed to compete. Unless there are any who strongly oppose it and feel it's necessary to discuss further, I think we can call that resolved.

I am in favor of the Olympics continuing. While things have gotten a bit more heated than we like, there are real discussions of content and value going on around these issues. I hope everyone continues to be careful with their tone, and avoid things that can be easily misunderstood, like sarcasm.

For now, perhaps the Olympics go on. Afterwards, it would be good to draft a proposal on how future Olympics could be organized. A panel to arbitrate disputes would be wise, as well as co-organizers.

Sorry, I am an Author, and if there is something I want or must write about I will write books upon books. If it helps, you can quote some of my post if you wish to reply to that section, because I am having a bit of lag while loading the pages myself 

@Subh: Sorry that was a little joke. See, your name is *Sub*h and you are the Moldavian Aurochs' *Sub*stitute, get it?    I didn't mean any disrespect.

I agree with Subh's post that a team of people should be organizing the event, but there are 5 judges who we shouldn't be forgetting. Where would they fit into this panel of people? Do you perhaps mean a strictly Olympic Organization Panel without them judging or how will we go at that? Maybe we could put some thought into making this work. Perhaps having the Judges become the panel just for this year? But that's not really the responsibility that they signed up for and we wouldn't want any of them quitting or being forced into doing it... Let's put our heads together and contribute ideas.

Lightnin wrote:

There are a few issues here. As we think about this, let's focus on the first problem - What is a fair and just solution when it comes to the current Olympic competition?
If Moldova was allowed to take on another Team member (or, if the banned member contacts the Scratch Team and successfully appeals the ban), would that be fair?

I believe a fair solution would be to let Moldova participate in the Olympics, and let the community decide if we should let Team Japan-Korea enter the contest. In case some people don't want to read through my wall of text, I proposed that we should have a vote to see if Team Japan should be allowed into the contest. Though not everyone may support this idea, so I came up with this idea of having the people decide if they want to have a poll where we ask if they would like to vote for Japan to participate. If we have at least a few more people supporting the Poll, then we will get Illusionist to host the Japan Poll. If you wish to help Team Japan into the Olympics, please state 'Friend of Team Japan'

We have 2 Friends at the Time of this post. We only need a couple more.

Jimmy-Jermaine wrote:

@Subh: Sorry that was a little joke. See, your name is *Sub*h and you are the Moldavian Aurochs' *Sub*stitute, get it?    I didn't mean any disrespect.

NO NEED FOR SORRY. I JUST DID NOT GET THE JOKE THEN.

AND ITS FUNNY    BUT NOT "IRONICAL"