We read a lot about how the Scratch forums are a friendly welcoming community for newcomers, and I can't quarrel with that assessment. The forums have been friendly and welcoming to me even though there is a vast generation gap between me and most of the forum participants. However, the statistics indicate that while the forums may be friendly and welcoming, they are not very inclusive. The vast majority of Scratch users don't participate in the forums. This should be something that the folks at MIT would want to work on because it means that an important resource is largely going to waste.
I will present some statistics first and follow the statistics up with some tentative conclusions.
The following data was gathered on the morning of 06/08/08 by performing Google searches on Scratch usernames with the following keywords:
site:http://scratch.mit.edu/forums username
The search was limited to posts for the past month, and all posts were included in the totals regardless of whether they were made by the user or the username was simply mentioned in a post made by someone else.
The following are 30-day total posts (or mentions) for the users who posted during the 24-hour period ending at 08:52 on 06/08/08. The number in the first column is the total number of posts that included the username during the 30-day period. The second column is the username. The purpose of this list is simply to provide a snapshot of forum participation by username to serve as a baseline for analysis of the other data. As you can see, the usernames are arranged in descending order by total number of posts during the 30-day period.
177 Bobby500
165 dingdong
164 Bluestribute
142 geckofreak
112 funkymonkey
096 Paddle2See
094 Cyclone103
083 siddthesquid
065 tms5
063 andresmh
050 Jens
047 Berryfeather
036 dbal
033 relyt12101
032 JSO
029 Sakani
028 Half-Wolf-Leader
027 Hoopla
025 bigB
019 torterra
018 adityasm9
014 Jacobo
008 Fireicedude
007 shadow_7283
006 ldugg6
004 ooogabooga
003 Gallade_X-treme
002 stopmotion
002 registeel
002 Ketchup13
001 qwertyu63
001 aleboy10
001 thepester
The following are 30-day total posts for the users who posted the ten most recent projects in the list of Newest Projects when I collected the data on the morning of 06/06/08. This is the first of six lists that are featured on the Scratch home page on a daily basis.
000 Tommy564
028 Pineappleprincess
000 deadmeat90
000 nene-K
000 ElCapitanoFlapjack
000 cooladam
000 herodude12
000 bikerjack9
000 WaveGrovyleFlame64
000 svenni12
The following are 30-day total posts for the users whose projects were at the top of the list of Featured Projects on the morning of 06/06/08.
000 BATzerk
005 mrguy740
000 tigersrule101
000 Rurigok
000 billyedward
000 goch
000 Robotsrule
000 Jesscookie
000 robbie
000 Hard_Rock_Gaming
The following are 30-day total posts for the users whose projects were at the top of the list of Surprise Projects when I collected the data on the morning of 06/06/08. Apparently this list changes often.
000 vietboidanny
000 jorca11
000 monkeypiefairy
000 Canni 000 jonkatt
000 nene-K
000 DREAMEATER
000 Emi-Emi
000 16finkes
000 Eggykitty
000 Tommy564
The following are 30-day total posts for the users whose projects were at the top of the list of Top Loved Lately Projects on the morning of 06/06/08.
006 Silverkey17
000 cougers
023 DaRossi
002 Shanesta
002 kuri
030 S65
002 Dolfus555
096 Paddle2See
005 Tanner-FBI Oldschooler2
122 archmage
001 archknight
002 Axeblade
The following are 30-day total posts for the users whose projects were on the list of Top Downloaded Projects on the morning of 06/06/08.
002 Dolfus555
000 robbie
023 DaRossi
The following are 30-day total posts for the users whose projects were at the top of the list of Top Viewed Projects on the morning of 06/06/08.
000 cougers
047 Berryfeather
000 AromaRageST
002 jay 000 fleetJ
000 jmgibson
000 Snoopy
002 Shanesta
000 peepod123
000 angelical
013 slobasso
000 Bloing_Gloing
One conclusion that can be reached very quickly by examining the baseline data in the first list above is that the distribution of users across the forums is very narrow. Stated differently, an extremely small percentage of users post the vast majority of items on the forums. Even without examining the other data, that fact in itself should be a warning signal that the forums are not very inclusive.
Data for a total of 55 usernames that appeared on one or more of the six lists (exclusive of the 24-hour baseline list) that are featured on the Scratch home page are provided above. A few of the names appear on more than one list.
If I did the arithmetic correctly, even though these are obviously active Scratch users, 67-percent of these usernames were never mentioned in the forums during the past 30 days. Although I'm not a statistician, I believe that one might conclude that for whatever reason, the forums have nothing to offer 67-percent of the active users of the Scratch website. At least, those 67-percent of the active users don't recognize what the forums might have to offer and therefore don't frequent the forums.
In reality, I believe that the results are even more negative than the results shown above. Although I haven't attempted to quantify the relationship, there is a strong relationship between the users who do frequent the forums and the names on the following lists:
Top Loved Lately
Top Downloaded
Top Viewed
This correlation results from the fact that many of the users who do frequent the forums actively promote their own projects on the forums, competing for high numbers in the Viewed, Downloaded, Comments, and LoveIt scores. (There even seems to be some competition to see who can post the most items on the forums regardless of whether or not those items are meaningful.) These scores seem to be a major motivating factor in forums participation by many users. This self-promotion induces others who frequent the forums to view, download, and click the Love It button on their friend's projects. While there is nothing inherently wrong with users promoting their own projects, it does bias the data in these three lists.
If these three lists are eliminated from consideration in an attempt to get a random sampling of users, there are 30 usernames in the remaining three lists. Twenty-eight (93-percent) of these usernames have not been mentioned in the forums in the past 30 days even though they are active users of the website.
Extrapolating this to the Scratch user population as a whole, one might conclude that the vast majority of the users don't consider the forums to be a valuable resource or at least they don't realize that the forums could be a valuable resource. This is a very unfortunate circumstance which deserves some serious study by the folks at MIT. The important questions are:
1. What can be done to cause the forums to be a more useful resource to the vast majority of users, and
2. What can be done to cause the vast majority of users to consider the forums to be a useful resource?
I have some ideas of my own as to why the vast majority of the Scratch users appear to shun the forums, but my ideas are based on opinion and are not based on scientific data. So, for the time being, at least, I will keep these opinions to myself.
Perhaps it would be useful for the folks at MIT to get some of the other experts at the university involved to construct and administer a meaningful random survey among Scratch users to learn about their likes and dislikes regarding the forums. Then they could take whatever corrective actions might be appropriate to cause everyone involved to get more benefit from the forums.
The forums could be an extremely valuable resource for all users, but at this point in time, this potentially valuable resource seems to be largely going to waste.
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Dang it, there goes my record for the longest post in forum history. Oh well.
Anyways, I am on top for most posts in the forums! Yay. I actually read the entire thing and that is a great point. Scrtach needs more people to join the forums. The more people there, the more people that look at (my) projects that we ar advertising up there. I think that there should be an off-topic section up there because alot of people like those and will hang out in them. Then they look at the other topics, they drag friends who look at the topics and wahmosh! More views and stuff!
I am glad that I have alot of posts. I wanted to drive it up there but still give meaningful posts on each thread. I have succeded. BTW, how long did this take to write and research?
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Bobby500, you might have the most in 1 month, but look at my all-time. Anyway, I read most of it, and that's really surprising. 67 Percent don't use the forums! That's how I got 84 views and 21 love-it's in 2 days!
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I already thought about this issue more then once.
As dbal described in the long post above, to less users are participating the forums.
And in my oppinion, much of the ones who do participate the forums are using this place as a chatbox.
I think the major cause of this problem is (and it is on many sites) there are *no* links on other parts of the Scratch website to the forums - it is almost a different site. Maybe a link 'how could I promote this project corectly' could be shown on the project page (only for it's creator). Or links could also be included in the scratch program like 'find help on the scratch forums...'.
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Bobby500 wrote:
Dang it, there goes my record for the longest post in forum history. Oh well.
Anyways, I am on top for most posts in the forums! Yay. I actually read the entire thing and that is a great point. Scrtach needs more people to join the forums. The more people there, the more people that look at (my) projects that we ar advertising up there. I think that there should be an off-topic section up there because alot of people like those and will hang out in them. Then they look at the other topics, they drag friends who look at the topics and wahmosh! More views and stuff!
I am glad that I have alot of posts. I wanted to drive it up there but still give meaningful posts on each thread. I have succeded. BTW, how long did this take to write and research?
It took me a couple of hours, mainly doing the research. I probably wrote it in half an hour or less once I had the data.
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One thought I have had about increasing the number of users is for each of you to place comments on the new projects inviting the authors to come and try out the forums. Then be sure to treat them nicely once they do try the forums, even if they are newbies and their projects aren't that exciting. Remember, you were all newbies once, and will be again to some extent when you graduate from Scratch into more powerful languages.
Last edited by dbal (2008-06-08 14:28:31)
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Kind of like a Welcome Wagon? It's a good idea...we only see a fraction of the Scratch population on the Forums. People would feel more like part of the community if they were more involved. And they would learn faster...there's a lot of expertise here!
I also like JSO's suggestion to include some links to the Forums from the other areas of Scratch. That approach would be automatic and wouldn't require a lot of people hours of effort. Of course, nothing beats the personal touch.
Taking that thought a bit further, new users could be paired up with Mentors who could show them the ropes, including the Forums.
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coolstuff wrote:
Somehow, though I posted several times in the past thirty days, I don't make it anywhere on this list.
The list only included people who also posted within the past 24 hours. If you did that, I must have simply missed your name.
Last edited by dbal (2008-06-08 17:52:28)
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I am at the top. Alos Bluestribute, you have been here 4 months longer than me.
We really should get more people on the forums. Me and Bluestribute are making a commercial for scratch that we are going to put on youtube. I will add a link to the forums on it aswell.
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hey im on that list! i feel so special now, but really its not a problem that kids arnt partcipating in the forums..... they will check it out sooner or later. also.... i like jso's idea! its very..... ideal.
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dbal wrote:
coolstuff wrote:
Somehow, though I posted several times in the past thirty days, I don't make it anywhere on this list.
The list only included people who also posted within the past 24 hours. If you did that, I must have simply missed your name.
Oh. Sorry, I didn't realize that. I thought it was the 30 days. Yeah, I didn't post last night.
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Wow, nice analysis dbal!
When we started with the Scratch website a number of people in the Team were very skeptical about the Forums. In previous experiences working with young people, we have had little success getting them to use text-based forums. At the beginning we thought that only adults were going to use the forums and that they were going to be mostly empty. As you can imagine, our expectations have been surpassed.
However, I totally agree with you that the forums is not used as much as they could. There are probably many factors for that. In a paper we recently wrote, we use Lave and Wagner's idea of "peripheral participation" as legitimate form of participation to validate the different ways in which users can and do contribute to the Scratch community. The big research question here would be: how to foster more active forms of participation.
Others have noted strong participation inequalities in sites like Wikipedia, YouTube and Digg and have proposed some solutions. It is definitely an open area of work and we certainly would want to hear your opinions.
There are also other open issues such as equality of participation across gender that also need to be addressed.
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andresmh wrote:
Wow, nice analysis dbal!
... It is definitely an open area of work and we certainly would want to hear your opinions.
Okay andresmh, here is one of my opinions. You definitely need to do something to prevent scratchers from using the forums as a chat box. It is very irritating to subscribe to an important thread, get an email message that there is a new post on the thread, go to the site, log in, and navigate to the new post only to find that someone has posted:
"What are the little dudes doing, dancing to killer or something?"
This kind of behavior serves to render most threads worthless after the first couple of posts on the thread. My observation is that important threads quickly degenerate into a long series of trivial comments, often completely off topic, and which, even if on topic do little or nothing to provide information regarding the topic. For example, if you go back and examine the posts that were made on this thread, many were trivial chat-like comments, boasting about who had the most posts, who failed to make the list, etc., that had nothing to do with solving the problem.
Then when someone does make a worthwhile post that advances the topic encompassed by the thread, it is extremely difficult to find among the junk.
I'm not sure what can be done if the scratchers won't police themselves in this regard. Maybe it would make sense to establish a new category named Off Topic and give the moderators the authority to move all trivial and off topic posts to a catch-all thread in that category. As long as the scratchers continue to use the forums as a chat box, it is unlikely that the forums will attract anyone who is seriously looking for information. There is good information on the forums, but it is almost impossible to find among the junk.
Something else that might help, if it doesn't already exist, is to give members the ability to exchange messages behind the scenes. For example, the Alice forums provide this capability. As an example, I have been exchanging a long series of very short posts with Bluestribute trying to arrange for the transfer of a particular file. I'm sure that no one else had any interest in that conversation, but without an alternative communication mechanism, I didn't know any other way to do it.
Last edited by dbal (2008-06-09 12:10:17)
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Yeah, an off topic forum would be a good idea too...
And yes, the forum does seem like a separate site.
Can it be integrated further with the main site? -put avatars in the forum, and “who's online" also work on the main site? Perhaps indicate if the user is online in their projects and next to names in galleries?
Interesting paper andresmh.
So you're trying to convert more "passive consumers" into "active producers"?
You have wide range of users in age, level, interests and needs...
Why do people participate?
I think some of this can apply to Maslow's hierarchy of needs.
I think most of your "active producers" are motivated by the need for "love and belongingness" and "Esteem". (Some need some aspects of "self actualization": Creativity, Problem solving... perhaps more will get to this level, when the lower needs are met?)
Both of these are gratified to some degree when a user's project gets attention...
I think the attention is more gratifying when the attention comes from those at a similar level/interests and when relationships develop. (The galleries can be good for this.) But this takes time. There's that need for instant attention... being able to connect with people online now. “Newest projects" on the front page used to do that. It was a struggle to get anyone to look at my projects when I first joined. I didn't know how to get attention. Unfortunately, I think spamming is now the most effective way to get attention quickly.
(I've rambled on about this elsewhere...)
The friend system helps here. But for me it's no longer for me to keep track of friends with similar interests. I feel rude if I were to exclude friends. Perhaps if there was a way to subscribe to certain friend's projects... and their newest projects show up when I login?
The RSS feeds does this! They're excellent for keeping track of friend's projects and galleries, but perhaps it needs a link to “What's RSS?" right next to to the RSS icons.
The Sims has almost equal participation between males and females... and Sims2 at 60% females.
http://news.cnet.com/The-secret-behind-The-Sims/2008-1082_3-254218.html
Will Wright wrote:
Men approach it more as a game or a challenge--something to be overcome, learn the rules, master it. Whereas women are more, 'Oh, I want a palette that I can be creative with.' And also there's a community-building experience that I'd say the men and women participate in equally.
I think the popularity of the “dress your doll" type projects on Scratch shows this too.
For Sims I think the doll house and relationships content help some females get into it too...
Perhaps customize some of the front page content based on demographic... When someone registered as a 10 year old female signs in, show her more projects by other 10 year old females... and when a 25 year old male signs in, show him more by his peers... Perhaps this will encourage collaboration/activity with others more likely to share their interests... so they can feel like they belong more quickly.
It's fun to watch Scratch grow. Thanks!
Last edited by AddZero (2008-06-10 03:44:07)
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Do you mean off-topic threads or off-topic messages within a thread?
Moderators are allowed to move threads. Messages within a thread cannot be moved at this point for technical reasons. We haven't had enough time to look into that.
I often struggle with the issue of keeping the site "clean" vs giving people freedom (especially young users) to post freely. Adults tend to prefer to keep things on topic but younger users tend to prefer less ordered sites (see MySpace :-). Highlighting content seems like a good idea. Maybe it would be a good idea to have a centralized and curated wiki to refer to important discussions on the forums or where people can post tutorials and/or links.
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I also liked the idea of having personalization for the front page! Sounds like good project for an undergrad here
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Yay, I'm number 4. I just started using the forums recently. I think alot of members are afraid to use the forums because they think it is for advanced scratchers and they think they might embaress themselves
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andresmh wrote:
Do you mean off-topic threads or off-topic messages within a thread?
Moderators are allowed to move threads. Messages within a thread cannot be moved at this point for technical reasons. We haven't had enough time to look into that.
I often struggle with the issue of keeping the site "clean" vs giving people freedom (especially young users) to post freely. Adults tend to prefer to keep things on topic but younger users tend to prefer less ordered sites (see MySpace :-). Highlighting content seems like a good idea. Maybe it would be a good idea to have a centralized and curated wiki to refer to important discussions on the forums or where people can post tutorials and/or links.
I meant off-topic messages or posts within a thread.
As an adult, I like to be able to navigate to a thread and find information that pertains to the topic of the thread without having to wade through dozens of meaningless chat-style messages. There isn't much point in having threads if they degenerate into a chat room after two or three messages. Might as well just have one massive thread named AnythingGoes.
Maybe you could establish a Scratch chat room and encourage everyone who prefers to chat to use it instead of cluttering up the forums with chat.
I don't believe that a curated wiki would do the same job that well-managed and clean threads do. That requires someone to exercise too much judgment as to what is and what is not important, both now and in the future.
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Frankly, I quite like the small amount of members who use the forums. It gives them a feel that it is a small yet active community because you know almost everybody who posts there. If there are too many people, than you never really remember everybody's name because there are too many. Many could tolerate a few more users, and at the rate of coming and goings of people who use the forum we are probably maintaining a more or less solid number.
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I've also noticed that the "best" Scratchers advertise with the forums. So, they aren't "The best", but they got lots of views and recognition through the forums
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