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#51 2010-06-05 04:42:39

Chrischb
Scratcher
Registered: 2008-07-24
Posts: 1000+

Re: The Scratch Wiki

@bharvey: I posted a message about that on Lucario's talk page...  smile
Is this okay?

• A wiki is designed to be easily accessible and changeable by anyone; registered or not, experienced or not, and so on.

With: It's a lot easier for people to edit, and will provide more information.

Against: In this case we want the wiki to be as accurate as possible, like a guidebook for Scratch - editing out vandalism, commercial spam, and correcting information would take away lots of time that could be used in improving/creating articles.

• Not everyone can be active; new contributors are chosen by how helpful they can be, but that can prevent users with knowledge from being able to edit simply because they do not have the time and dedication to stick the wiki continuously and help it grow.

With: This will allow more information; for example, a user who worked in a collaboration for a Scratch modification would have lots of information to give, far more than one who has simply viewed it from the sidelines.

Against: The benefits here are small. The only one I can think of is that the entire wiki community will be dedicated, ready to help each other, improve articles together, and perform large feats together (such as changing an entire category grouping).

• Why should spamming the wiki be more of a concern than the Scratch Forums? Users are allowed to visit the forums without registering there separately.

With: The Scratch Forums are not subject to extreme amounts of spam, unless there is far more than is known because of the likely speed of the moderators in removing it. If the Scratch Forums can cope, so will the wiki.

Against: Once again, the wiki is supposed to be strictly accurate, like a guidebook - the forums are just a place to share information, ask for help, and more; while the wiki is to contain true information, and must then stay accurate.

Last edited by Chrischb (2010-06-05 04:44:16)


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#52 2010-06-05 07:30:19

WeirdF
Scratcher
Registered: 2009-05-31
Posts: 1000+

Re: The Scratch Wiki

Can I join the Wiki please? My grammar and spelling, as those who know me will know, is immaculate. I know a lot about Scratch and I had an account on the last Wiki. I have been told that my edits are good by Jonathanpb, who is an administrator for the Wiki.

If some guy who has the power to let me be a contributor would make me one, I would be rather grateful.  smile


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#53 2010-06-05 07:43:08

Jonathanpb
Scratcher
Registered: 2008-07-25
Posts: 1000+

Re: The Scratch Wiki

Being an administrator only means that you get a few more tools - nothing big. I don't think I can reprimand users and such...  smile


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-Charlotte Brontë

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#54 2010-06-05 07:58:24

WeirdF
Scratcher
Registered: 2009-05-31
Posts: 1000+

Re: The Scratch Wiki

Well, you are a very active and trusted member of the Wiki, and also of the Scratch Community, so your opinion counts!  smile


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#55 2010-06-05 09:55:30

Lucario621
Community Moderator
Registered: 2007-10-03
Posts: 1000+

Re: The Scratch Wiki

WeirdF wrote:

Lucario621 wrote:

WeirdF wrote:

Well my account's not still there...

And when you click "Log in or sign up for an account," it just takes you to a log in page, so how do you sign up?

Yeah... there's the thing...

Not all users will necessarily have accounts. The accounts aren't connected to those on the Scratch Website. Instead, users can request accounts, if they feel they would be a good help to the wiki. Only bureaucrats like me, JSO, and Andres. But desperately begging will only lower your chances of becoming a contributor - but to request, and give a speech if you want.

See the Become a contributor article - though it's still a work in progress.

But I had an account on the old Wiki, and you've just told Vista4563 that previous members will retain their accounts. I am a previous member... So why don't I have an account?

*cough* Not yet *uncough*

Very soon - as Jonathanpb probably said.

But I'm assuming that because you're complaining, your confirming that you want an account, right? Because I'm only going to bring back the accounts from the old wiki for the people who want it.

Last edited by Lucario621 (2010-06-05 09:56:34)


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#56 2010-06-05 10:08:50

bharvey
Scratcher
Registered: 2008-08-10
Posts: 1000+

Re: The Scratch Wiki

Chrischb wrote:

@bharvey: I posted a message about that on Lucario's talk page...  smile
Is this okay?

People have talk pages?   Anyway, sure, thanks!


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#57 2010-06-05 10:11:43

Lucario621
Community Moderator
Registered: 2007-10-03
Posts: 1000+

Re: The Scratch Wiki

bharvey wrote:

Why is spamming the wiki more of a concern than spamming the forums?

Unlike the forums, if anonymous users were able to edit, than they could basically blank all of the text on all of the articles, if they felt revenge lol. Some scratchers would actually do that - and some people might replace some people's names with innapropriate words, etc. That's pretty awful. I don't want some person seeing the wiki for the first time seeing some bad stuff, or blank articles or anything.

I hope you understand...


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#58 2010-06-05 10:17:05

Lucario621
Community Moderator
Registered: 2007-10-03
Posts: 1000+

Re: The Scratch Wiki

Bharvey, just to prove my point, I will give some examples on some scratch wikis I've been on:

http://scratch.wikia.com/index.php?title=Scratch_Programming_Wiki:Community_Portal&diff=prev&oldid=6534

http://scratch.wikia.com/index.php?title=Scratch_Programming_Wiki:Birthdays/June&diff=prev&oldid=8745

http://scratchers.wikia.com/index.php?title=Andresmh&diff=prev&oldid=4300

http://scratchers.wikia.com/index.php?title=Dethklok52&diff=prev&oldid=4301

Those are just a few examples - there are many more. And those just had a few users on the wiki, and very few people knew or saw the wiki. Now that this is somewhat official, we'll obviously be expecting much more!


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#59 2010-06-05 10:20:19

Lucario621
Community Moderator
Registered: 2007-10-03
Posts: 1000+

Re: The Scratch Wiki

Jonathanpb wrote:

Hmmm... you've defeated the second reason.  smile  I don't think that there will be an integrated login though - I think they would have done it if they could. But I'm not sure - I'll ask Lucario.  wink

Bharvey is true actually though, as I am pretty sure there can be an integrated login. I myself am not sure - but if you can connect the wiki accounts to scratch website accounts, than it must be possible  wink .


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#60 2010-06-05 10:27:01

Lucario621
Community Moderator
Registered: 2007-10-03
Posts: 1000+

Re: The Scratch Wiki

Chrischb wrote:

• A wiki is designed to be easily accessible and changeable by anyone; registered or not, experienced or not, and so on.

Not necessarily. "A wiki is a website that allows the easy creation and editing of any number of interlinked web pages via a web browser using a simplified markup language or a WYSIWYG text editor." Ever heard of 'private wikis'? They can't be edited by anyone. Nor viewed. So it doesn't have to be that way. Though I'm not trying to say that's what I want the Scratch Wiki to be - I just don't want any vandalism.


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#61 2010-06-05 11:43:37

archmage
Scratcher
Registered: 2007-05-18
Posts: 1000+

Re: The Scratch Wiki

Lucario621 wrote:

bharvey wrote:

Why is spamming the wiki more of a concern than spamming the forums?

Unlike the forums, if anonymous users were able to edit, than they could basically blank all of the text on all of the articles, if they felt revenge lol. Some scratchers would actually do that - and some people might replace some people's names with innapropriate words, etc. That's pretty awful. I don't want some person seeing the wiki for the first time seeing some bad stuff, or blank articles or anything.

I hope you understand...

All wikis have a backup history, so that when people ruin everything, they are banned from the wiki and things are restored to before they changed things.

The fact that contributors have to be hand picked is kind of disappointing I think. You are really limiting the amount of contributing users. Some users probably won't have the dedication to the wiki to write more than 1 article but perhaps that 1 article would show people something new? Or some users wouldn't write anything but just fix vandalism maybe?

No anonymous editing is fine but don't make users go though a long process involving writing an application in the forums, most users don't use the forums anyways. Also, give the wiki a more visible position on the website because its not useful if no one can find it.


Hi, I am Archmage coder extraordinaire. I do Scratch,pascal,java,php,html, AS2 and AS3. Leave me a message if you want coding advice. Also check out my personal website, lots of good stuff about web development, Flash, and Scratch (v1 and v2) !

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#62 2010-06-05 12:16:53

WeirdF
Scratcher
Registered: 2009-05-31
Posts: 1000+

Re: The Scratch Wiki

Lucario621 wrote:

WeirdF wrote:

Lucario621 wrote:


Yeah... there's the thing...

Not all users will necessarily have accounts. The accounts aren't connected to those on the Scratch Website. Instead, users can request accounts, if they feel they would be a good help to the wiki. Only bureaucrats like me, JSO, and Andres. But desperately begging will only lower your chances of becoming a contributor - but to request, and give a speech if you want.

See the Become a contributor article - though it's still a work in progress.

But I had an account on the old Wiki, and you've just told Vista4563 that previous members will retain their accounts. I am a previous member... So why don't I have an account?

*cough* Not yet *uncough*

Very soon - as Jonathanpb probably said.

But I'm assuming that because you're complaining, your confirming that you want an account, right? Because I'm only going to bring back the accounts from the old wiki for the people who want it.

Yes, I do want it... And I tried to make it sound like I wasn't complaining, because I'm not... So sorry if it sounded like that...


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#63 2010-06-05 12:49:01

Lucario621
Community Moderator
Registered: 2007-10-03
Posts: 1000+

Re: The Scratch Wiki

WeirdF wrote:

Lucario621 wrote:

WeirdF wrote:


But I had an account on the old Wiki, and you've just told Vista4563 that previous members will retain their accounts. I am a previous member... So why don't I have an account?

*cough* Not yet *uncough*

Very soon - as Jonathanpb probably said.

But I'm assuming that because you're complaining, your confirming that you want an account, right? Because I'm only going to bring back the accounts from the old wiki for the people who want it.

Yes, I do want it... And I tried to make it sound like I wasn't complaining, because I'm not... So sorry if it sounded like that...

Nah it's fine.


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#64 2010-06-05 12:55:16

Lucario621
Community Moderator
Registered: 2007-10-03
Posts: 1000+

Re: The Scratch Wiki

archmage wrote:

All wikis have a backup history, so that when people ruin everything, they are banned from the wiki and things are restored to before they changed things.

Yes, but not all admins are active all the time, so it can take some time to revert the edits. Also, we don't want to have to ban users - it seems a little harsh, considering how often people are already being banned on the website.

archmage wrote:

Also, give the wiki a more visible position on the website because its not useful if no one can find it.

Blame that on Andres. He's the one who gave the excuse "there's already enough stuff on the front page". And I'm still waiting for him to link to it somewhere on the website, like at least on the support page.


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#65 2010-06-05 13:35:32

bharvey
Scratcher
Registered: 2008-08-10
Posts: 1000+

Re: The Scratch Wiki

Lucario621 wrote:

Ever heard of 'private wikis'

Yeah, there are lots of wikis with a small community of interested people.  But I haven't seen many examples of wikis that are widely read but not widely writeable, although I'm sure there must be some -- anything that can happen, does, sooner or later.

Your examples convince me that people should have to log in to edit.  But the signed examples in your collection were apparently all one person.  It'd be too bad if we can't deal with a small number of problem users without losing a great opportunity for community building.

It's just like the real world (although with the stakes not so high): if you let yourself be terrified, then the terrorists win.

Right now, with the wiki just starting, the article topics are kind of bland.  What you get by letting everyone contribute is more idiosyncratic topics.  How to do sideways scrolling.  Creative uses of the camera feature.  Good and bad programming style.  Using other people's characters in your projects.  How much violence makes a project "inappropriate"?  What does the copyight law say about putting a music clip in a project?  Collected statistics about Scratchers.  You won't get articles like those with a top-down organization.

Also, we don't want to have to ban users - it seems a little harsh, considering how often people are already being banned on the website.

But instead you, in effect, ban everyone!  Now that's what I'd call harsh.  It's an example of "collective punishment": somebody wrote a bad word on the bathroom wall, so the whole class doesn't get recess today.

Please don't feel personally attacked, by the way -- we're having, I hope, a friendly discussion about how best to build the community we all love.

But this open/closed thing is an issue I feel strongly about.  Right now, here at Berkeley where I teach undergraduates, there is a constant battle between the system staff and the students because the latter unplug the lab computers to plug in their laptops (even though the staff supply outlets for that purpose, sigh).  The staff threaten punishments and the students pretty much ignore them.  By contrast, when I was a high school teacher and got to run the computer lab however I wanted, I gave kids keys to the room and put them in charge of making it work, and no equipment was ever stolen or damaged.  You tend to get the kind of behavior you plan for, I think.


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#66 2010-06-05 13:42:15

bharvey
Scratcher
Registered: 2008-08-10
Posts: 1000+

Re: The Scratch Wiki

Lucario621 wrote:

not all admins are active all the time, so it can take some time to revert the edits.

Ah, but if you open the doors, you have 534,846 (as of this moment) editors, and some of them are always active -- I mean, at any moment, a lot of them are active, not that some particular one is always awake.  smile   Wikipedia is vandalized all the time, but you never actually see a vandalized article, because they get reverted within (I think I've read) a minute.

Sorry, I'm talking too much -- it's all Jens's fault for being on vacation and leaving me frustrated.  smile


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#67 2010-06-05 15:35:30

dav09
Scratcher
Registered: 2009-03-25
Posts: 1000+

Re: The Scratch Wiki

i really hope i get to join, my reasons are on the last page  smile

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#68 2010-06-05 16:34:17

gershmer
Scratcher
Registered: 2009-02-12
Posts: 1000+

Re: The Scratch Wiki

I don't want to join as a page editor on the wiki... but on the Scratch 2.0 page, you should mention that Mitch Resnick (scratch team member, mres) answered questions about Scratch 2.0 here.


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#69 2010-06-05 16:59:23

andresmh
Scratch Team at MIT
Registered: 2007-03-05
Posts: 1000+

Re: The Scratch Wiki

I'm all for openness and crowdsourcing, I do want to let anyone edit the wiki but first I want to make sure we have enough momentum and a large group of trusted editors in different time zones to deal with possible vandalism as fast as Wikipedia. Yes, it is possible to revert any kind of vandalism, but how fast and how many people and time does it take to do it?  As you might know, .edu domains are a big target for spammers because it gives them higher Google rank to their pages. You might not see it but our website gets attacked by spammers all the time and the Scratch Team and moderators spend quite a bit of time dealing with this.

For now, we'll be giving accounts to basically any reasonable person who asks for an one. The current editors will decide the exact process for doing this. Also, one thing I like about applying for accounts is that we can create accounts with the same username people use on the other parts of the Scratch website.

As for featuring the Wiki on the front page. I am thinking about replacing "Recent Visitors" for the Wiki. And only show "Recent Visitors" after people are logged in.


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#70 2010-06-05 17:08:19

Blade-Edge
Scratcher
Registered: 2009-06-13
Posts: 1000+

Re: The Scratch Wiki

Lucario621 wrote:

WeirdF wrote:

Lucario621 wrote:


Yeah... there's the thing...

Not all users will necessarily have accounts. The accounts aren't connected to those on the Scratch Website. Instead, users can request accounts, if they feel they would be a good help to the wiki. Only bureaucrats like me, JSO, and Andres. But desperately begging will only lower your chances of becoming a contributor - but to request, and give a speech if you want.

See the Become a contributor article - though it's still a work in progress.

But I had an account on the old Wiki, and you've just told Vista4563 that previous members will retain their accounts. I am a previous member... So why don't I have an account?

*cough* Not yet *uncough*

Very soon - as Jonathanpb probably said.

But I'm assuming that because you're complaining, your confirming that you want an account, right? Because I'm only going to bring back the accounts from the old wiki for the people who want it.

Hey, I had an account there too :O

Just sayin'


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#71 2010-06-05 17:37:12

dav09
Scratcher
Registered: 2009-03-25
Posts: 1000+

Re: The Scratch Wiki

i know im asking many questions but when will these accounts be first given to others?Thanks

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#72 2010-06-05 18:04:38

bharvey
Scratcher
Registered: 2008-08-10
Posts: 1000+

Re: The Scratch Wiki

andresmh wrote:

For now, we'll be giving accounts to basically any reasonable person who asks for an one.

Ah, well, that's a more reachable target than helpful to the community.  smile   Count me in!  Thanks.


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#73 2010-06-05 18:09:06

archmage
Scratcher
Registered: 2007-05-18
Posts: 1000+

Re: The Scratch Wiki

bharvey wrote:

andresmh wrote:

For now, we'll be giving accounts to basically any reasonable person who asks for an one.

Ah, well, that's a more reachable target than helpful to the community.  smile   Count me in!  Thanks.

Count me in too pls, I wanna make an article or 2  smile

Last edited by archmage (2010-06-05 18:09:33)


Hi, I am Archmage coder extraordinaire. I do Scratch,pascal,java,php,html, AS2 and AS3. Leave me a message if you want coding advice. Also check out my personal website, lots of good stuff about web development, Flash, and Scratch (v1 and v2) !

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#74 2010-06-05 18:18:21

coolstuff
Community Moderator
Registered: 2008-03-06
Posts: 1000+

Re: The Scratch Wiki

archmage wrote:

bharvey wrote:

andresmh wrote:

For now, we'll be giving accounts to basically any reasonable person who asks for an one.

Ah, well, that's a more reachable target than helpful to the community.  smile   Count me in!  Thanks.

Count me in too pls, I wanna make an article or 2  smile

Me too, please? I'd like to help out with such a great wiki.

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#75 2010-06-05 18:33:13

scmb1
Scratch Team
Registered: 2009-03-19
Posts: 1000+

Re: The Scratch Wiki

May I have an account? I'd like to help out the community.


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