Scratch
archived forums
#1 2010-05-11 17:48:15
- tobydanger
- Scratcher
- Registered: 2010-03-18
- Posts: 22
Consistency Needed Between Scratch Player and Scratch
The Scratch online player should execute all the instructions in a way that is comparable to Scratch itself. There is nothing more discouraging than discovering the newest idea you've had only works in Scratch and not online. The only acceptable differences should be ones of performance. There should not be projects that will not run online for any other reason than issues involving speed.
My biggest issue with the online player is that in Scratch you can use a variable to hold the name of a sprite so that if you have sprites named Sprite1, Sprite2, Sprite3 etc., you can loop over them by using an index and the join operator to create the name of a sprite.
in Psudocode:
Set <index> to 0
Repeat 4
Change <index> by 1
Set <SpriteName> to Join "Sprite" <Index>
if touching <SpriteName> then
Do Something
End Repeat
Everything should not have to be hard coded, this is bad programming practice and teaches the wrong way of doing things.
I have two examples if this issue. One of which I have shared with the Scratch Team.
Not Shared with Scratch Team: http://scratch.mit.edu/projects/tobydanger/1039885
Shared with the Scratch Team: http://scratch.mit.edu/projects/tobydanger/986536
Offline
#2 2010-05-11 18:15:33
- Paddle2See
- Scratch Team
- Registered: 2007-10-27
- Posts: 1000+
Re: Consistency Needed Between Scratch Player and Scratch
I agree with you on this...it is a real buzz kill to find that your wonderfully elegant solution you implemented in Scratch doesn't work in the Java player.
The problem is that the Java player is an entirely different application than Scratch with it's own set of complexities. I have hopes that Scratch 2.0 will solve this problem once and for all by making Scratch run natively on the web.
Offline
#3 2010-05-11 19:04:46
Re: Consistency Needed Between Scratch Player and Scratch
There are so many inconsistencies, and I don't find them at all enjoyable. I especially agree with Paddle2See on the point that Scratch 2.0 will fix this problem. The thing is, Scratch is written in Squeak, and you are therefore running your project in Squeak when you're in offline mode, whereas online you're running it in Java. The process of exactly emulating the same thing in two different programming languages is difficult to say the least.
Offline
#4 2010-05-11 19:43:07
Re: Consistency Needed Between Scratch Player and Scratch
The process of converting Squeak to Java was hard make in the first place. When the scratch team developed it, they probably could not go back to the time consuming job of fixing all the glitches, and some are probably not even possible to fix. Right now the scratch team is working on the new generation of scratch. Scratch 2.0. With a $200,000 budget, the scratch team is going to be developing a new version of scratch that will be way more reliable than the faulty Java player, but it will have the same simple programming interface. Right now all we can do it wait. Nearly everyone has had a problem with the Java player before, but the Scratch Team will fix this in the near future. Good luck, and Scratch on! 
Last edited by coka (2010-05-11 19:43:59)
Offline
#5 2010-05-11 21:56:28
Re: Consistency Needed Between Scratch Player and Scratch
Yep, it's a drag - no doubt about it! As P2S pointed out, we're excited about Scratch 2.0 providing a solution for this problem. It's _way_ easier to maintain one code base than it is to maintain two different implementations that are supposed to behave identically. So: we feel your pain, and we will fix it.... but it'll take some time I'm afraid.
Help Scratchers make the leap to 2.0!
Offline
#6 2010-05-11 22:07:08
Re: Consistency Needed Between Scratch Player and Scratch
coka wrote:
The process of converting Squeak to Java was hard make in the first place. When the scratch team developed it, they probably could not go back to the time consuming job of fixing all the glitches, and some are probably not even possible to fix. Right now the scratch team is working on the new generation of scratch. Scratch 2.0. With a $200,000 budget, the scratch team is going to be developing a new version of scratch that will be way more reliable than the faulty Java player, but it will have the same simple programming interface. Right now all we can do it wait. Nearly everyone has had a problem with the Java player before, but the Scratch Team will fix this in the near future. Good luck, and Scratch on!
...And about $8000 or $800 of that budget is going to be spent on Flash I think?
Offline
#7 2010-05-12 07:42:46
- tobydanger
- Scratcher
- Registered: 2010-03-18
- Posts: 22
Re: Consistency Needed Between Scratch Player and Scratch
I don't mean to be critical but I am concerned that efforts to integrate "social media" and other proposed 2.0 features overshadow the need for a consistent developer experience. When I hear things about 2.0 it seems all glitz and glam and very little to do with the language itself. The web is not the best application delivery method ever invented and I am somewhat dubious that the Scratch development experience can be delivered as effectively online as it is as an application. Sometimes I wish for pie in the sky stuff (i.e. BYOB) but actually, I would much rather see resources going to make what we have work (a better player, Squeak browser plug-in ?) than to something that might be unobtainable and/or of questionable educational value.
I know I sound like a real jerk here but I am very passionate about Scratch (got the shirt). I really want to teach Scratch to kids but I am somewhat concerned about the frustrating nature of the publishing experience.
I will attempt to keep my skepticism in check.
Offline
#8 2010-05-12 11:57:53
Re: Consistency Needed Between Scratch Player and Scratch
It's ok to give critical, constructive feedback about Scratch - in fact it is appreciated!
(By the way, you might also be interested in talking with other educators using Scratch on ScratchEd. http://scratched.media.mit.edu/ Perhaps others have had similar concerns? )
I can assure you that the user experience - tinkerability, etc. is _very_ important to the Scratch Team (I have logged quite a few hours in meetings discussing very fine points about the UI, so I can testify to that!) So while we are excited to add new features, we will keep in mind that usability at the core of Scratch is what has made it successful.
Help Scratchers make the leap to 2.0!
Offline