Scratch

archmage wrote:

Its hard to separate things into difficulties because what is complex to a newbie is probably easy for a professional computer programmer.

I like the way the newgrounds frontpage layout is set up. First is movies, next is games, then music, then art, and lastly galleries.

Yep, the important content first, the least important last.

archmage wrote:

Its hard to separate things into difficulties because what is complex to a newbie is probably easy for a professional computer programmer.

I like the way the newgrounds frontpage layout is set up. First is movies, next is games, then music, then art, and lastly galleries.

Yes, I agree that it would be hard to separate things into difficulties, there's no fool-proof way to categorise them. If you have 'number of scripts' as the thing that sorts them, people would just make loads of unnecessary scripts, and brilliant games such as LINE will be put in the beginner section. So the only way in my opinion that would be fair is to appoint a team of moderators to oversee what goes in each section, and to look carefully at the level of the games or animations before featuring them. I don't know if there already is a team like this, if there is they're not doing a very good job. Some of the stuff being featured at the moment is pure filth.

Also, I agree that a layout similar to Newgrounds would work very well, letting both animators and game makers have a chance to shine.

I loved seeing all of the neat games that used to be on Scratch; One of my favorites was the project "Time Bomb" by Mick, where you had to get your little ship to a door before the timer ran out. It was a very simple game, but it was pretty hard to beat 

I'm not too good at programming myself, so I decided to focus more on animation; It seems as if every other Scrather decides to Animate instead of create games. I suspect this is because animating is easier, and takes less time and thought. (I do it because I hope to have a career in Animation as an adult; I've already been accepted as an 'intern' for an animation studio for next year.) I really miss the great games on scratch, they're very seldom found nowadays.  and the ones that are good never get noticed. I've been trying my hand at doing more programming lately (though I haven't published any of it.) and right now I'm working on a game that I hope to release very soon; I want to see more programming on scratch.

I agree with you. Sort of.

The front page is getting kind of dominated, and competition is fierce. Some no-script projects are getting on, and often drama projects that start "wars".

I used to make games, but now I find that my heart lies in animation. A lot of my games are terrible compared to what some people are doing on Scratch these days. I see some really amazing things.

A lot of people have reffered to Scratch as a social network, not a programming tool. They spend most of the time chatting and have hardly any projects.
Of course, I do like to RPG. I admit it. ^_^"

Anyway, I don't think it's about the good Scratchers leaving. I think it's just that our population has grown so much!

Last edited by Maki-Tak (2009-11-03 14:35:21)

But when older members leave, new members join to fill their places, and it is all part of the continuous life cycle of Scratch.

nikkiperson2 wrote:

diywid wrote:

But when older members leave, new members join to fill their places, and it is all part of the continuous life cycle of Scratch.

I agree; It's just that the newer Generation is getting the wrong idea when they see front-page projects filled with Drama. They're new, and they want to fit in, so they're going to immitate the people on the front page. We need to start setting a good example.

I agree, but it does make the newer generation(although my account's about a year old) saying things like,"I miss the old Scratch were people were actually helpful and there was no drama. Now Scratch is so fail." Because if it was fail you'd probably stop going on.

RHY3756547 wrote:

Every day I see projects by the same people on the front page all the time. Most of the time it's so full of animations, anthros (eeuk) and drama that you don't think it's a programming site, but instead a worldwide popularity contest. The front page needs to be more like Newgrounds, like archmage says.

Also the Newest Projects are usually dominated by Hamster RPG projects, and top remixed aren't usually anything interesting, but instead competitions in which you win nothing valuable. Tis true.

I agree 110%. Top remixed has absolutely no value, and I think Surprise Projects should make a comeback and replace it. A random project generator, even though it is random, would have more value than "add yurself duin a dance" projects have.

Lucario621 wrote:

nikkiperson2 wrote:

diywid wrote:

But when older members leave, new members join to fill their places, and it is all part of the continuous life cycle of Scratch.

I agree; It's just that the newer Generation is getting the wrong idea when they see front-page projects filled with Drama. They're new, and they want to fit in, so they're going to immitate the people on the front page. We need to start setting a good example.

Exactly - that means nikki you delete all of your animations and make some kind of amazing one-sprite one-script project XD

LOL - animations are still of value - and in certain cases can be much better than Coded projects. But - in my opinion they should be separated so both get a chance.

archmage wrote:

After being here for so long (about 2 years) I have noticed some big changes in the popular projects and the types of people using the website. When I joined, the scratch website was featured on websites that feature tech news and articles (reddit, slashdot, digg). At this time the community had many more experience to moderately experienced programmers and many intricate projects (like tetris) were created. It seems as though most of those experienced programmers have left, probably because they just wanted to try it or found better things to do with their time. Today's community is a less mature crowd with less developed computer skills. It seems like the website is more focused on social interaction among children then making and collaborating on intricate projects. Also, this community seems much less interested in programming, as most popular projects are animations.

In light of this, what do you think of the current scratch community and what would you change about it?

Personally, I liked it better when the community was more focused on programming and testing what could be done with scratch. The current community seems just remotely interested in programming and treat scratch like another version of youtube. The frontpage has become just terrible now, with projects from the same 10 users every time and none feature interesting scripts.

Thanks a lot for your comments archmage!

I think there might be three orthogonal issues. Tell me if I am interpreting this correctly.

1. One problem could be that there are less people and projects you find interesting.

2. Another problem could be that there are people and projects that you would find interesting but it's just hard to find them.

3. Finally, another issue is that the front page does not show projects you find interesting.

I guess some of these issues are connected but it might be helpful to separate them.

For the first problem, the question would be: how can we attract those kind of people you find interesting?  You mention they are gone. I wonder, were most of them adults  like Shanesta, Kevin Karplus, Chalkmarrow ? Or were they younger people as well?

For the second problem, I agre we need a better system for finding interesting things. An advanced search engine might help. What should you be able to search for? Sorting by number of scripts and sprites might be useful, although not necessarily a representation of actual complexity or code elegance. It'

For the third problem, there are several solutions. A lot of them involve a lot of web development work on we might not be able to afford though. For example, personalization (like iGoogle that someone mentioned).

Another option is to forget about the front page and create alternative subcommunities using galleries or forums. Maybe we can install something like reddit on our servers (I believe it's open source).

But more than technical changes, I think there is a need for role models that represent the different interests. It seems to me like the role models for the animators and are very public, active and prolific. People look up to them and it creates a nice group that learns from each other and creates new and interesting things (at last to them). On the other hand, people interested in computer science and more technical challenges are perhaps less socially active and therefore less visible.

For a while I've been wishing that Scratchers would get involved in our blog. Perhaps having a guest blogger that writes articles for the technically inclined might bring attention from those with similar interests. It can also help present role models for beginners interested in the more technical aspects  of Scratch.

We might open a call for proposals to write for the blog so if this is something you would be interested in doing this could be a good opportunity for that.

Finally, yesterday I read this article by a popular blogger that writes about technology. The blog post talks about this very same problem you're describing. Many communities seem to have confronted the problem, most famously in the Usenet community in 1993. It's a good read: http://scobleizer.com/2009/11/02/the-chat-roomforum-problem-an-apology-to-technosailor/

nikkiperson2 wrote:

RHY3756547 wrote:

Every day I see projects by the same people on the front page all the time. Most of the time it's so full of animations, anthros (eeuk) and drama that you don't think it's a programming site, but instead a worldwide popularity contest. The front page needs to be more like Newgrounds, like archmage says.

Also the Newest Projects are usually dominated by Hamster RPG projects, and top remixed aren't usually anything interesting, but instead competitions in which you win nothing valuable. Tis true.

Yes, I completely agree. People think that they need to be famous, so instead of making a project that takes lots of time and effort, they make a project saying that they will quit if they don't get 50 love-it's in the next two days. What they don't realize is that if they actually take the time, they could make something that people can actually enjoy, and they don't have to worry about causing drama.

Scratch has become nothing more than a social networking site; that upsets me.

Lucario627 wrote:

Exactly - that means nikki you delete all of your animations and make some kind of amazing one-sprite one-script project XD

...*the number you have dialed is currently unavailable. Please try again.* *Beeeeeep.*

lol - so if I put up a project that said that I'm going to quit I'd become more popular than Dreamcaster?

That just isn't right. 

andresmh wrote:

For the first problem, the question would be: how can we attract those kind of people you find interesting?  You mention they are gone. I wonder, were most of them adults  like Shanesta, Kevin Karplus, Chalkmarrow ? Or were they younger people as well?

In regards to this, I don't think that is just a matter of attracting people with these skills, its a matter of letting people who have an interest to develop skills in whatever they are interested in. For example, when I started flash I only had basic programming experience in pascal. So, in order to learn how to use actionscript to make things I could upload to newgrounds.com I went to http://www.newgrounds.com/flash and checked out all of the coding tutorials. Now, for a person interested in making programs in scratch their only resources are the very basic tutorials explaining the blocks in the about and support pages. Most of the best resources for scratch are not very accessible and are tucked away in the forums or as projects which may not even teach things properly. If there was something like a scratch help wiki then users could search for whatever they need to know and apply it in their own work.

As for what particular kinds of users I like, the answer is any one with interesting scripts. This includes everyone you mentioned but also people like JSO, S65 and colkadome.

andresmh wrote:

For the second problem, I agree we need a better system for finding interesting things. An advanced search engine might help. What should you be able to search for? Sorting by number of scripts and sprites might be useful, although not necessarily a representation of actual complexity or code elegance. It'

I think it would be good for users to have easy access to a bunch of well managed galleries to would be about different aspects of scratch (including art, music, coding, and whatever else people can think of). Right now, the gallery system is not very organized or helpful. When looking for specific kinds of projects in galleries you have to search through lots of different similar galleries and find ones that seem well managed. For this you can make galleries that are easily accessible through the main page and show good example projects that people can take ideas from.

andresmh wrote:

For the third problem, there are several solutions. A lot of them involve a lot of web development work on we might not be able to afford though. For example, personalization (like iGoogle that someone mentioned).

The problem I have with the frontpage is that there is very little diversity. This means that if you don't share the same interests as the majority of the site does at the moment then you are out of luck. For example, right now on the frontpage it seems that most people are into cats and silly animations. For the people who don't want to look at comedy animations the frontpage offers nothing for them. Subsections of the site would also be good solution. Then it is easy to find a place with content that suits your interests.

Last edited by archmage (2009-11-04 13:20:58)

andresmh wrote:

For the third problem, there are several solutions. A lot of them involve a lot of web development work on we might not be able to afford though. For example, personalization (like iGoogle that someone mentioned).

I'd love to see some sort of system that selects projects you might find interesting, based on the projects you've viewed recently. That would mean you'd have no complaints about boring stuff cluttering up the homepage, because it would all be stuff you liked. If you don't like animations, you wouldn't have to see them, if you don't like games, you wouldn't have to see them. YouTube uses this to good effect in its 'Recommended For You' section of the homepage.

However, I guess it would be pretty radical and require quite a lot of work, so it may not be viable.