Scratch

I agree with you archmage.

I actually have similar feelings to you, although I haven't been around as long as you have. I miss the big, complicated games, but LINE was fine.

And nowadays, it's more of a social network like you said. Not focus and programming and sharing projects... and the Top Remixed is cluttered with remix chains, not a project that encourages remixing.

Okay, I know I didn't put it well. But that's how I feel. 

Well, everything has a life cycle, even users like yourself. Obviously you have skills and oldbie status around here but in my short time here you've come off as rather jaded and bored with things to the point of being somewhat rude to these "children with their cat animations." Even though that may seem like a put down, I don't really mean for it to be. In my opinion, the number one reason why most games, projects, sites, etc on the internet fail is because the people at the helm get bored and cease to push the curve so to speak. Again, this is a natural cycle. The solution is for current leaders (of whatever) to always be planning to eventually step down and hand control over to the most talented newbies on the block who are still caught up in that creative fire that once drove the old leaders.
For example, Quake I was groundbreaking enough in it's own right. But ID's decision to make the source code public sparked a huge movement where the users became developers, cranking out mods by the ton and creating a legacy that has shaped every first person shooter since. They handed over the keys.
I was offered co-ownership of an old PlayerWorlds based rpg game that at the time appeared to be super successful. But I had enough of an inside view to realize, and unfortunately I was right, that it was all sadly about to crash. We went from admin who did it because they loved it to people who were duping items and generally being stupid solely to gain notoriety for themselves, a common problem in any organization of people, virtual or otherwise. Throw in some of the higher ups being bored but not wanting to step aside after having put in countless hours of hard work and you have a commonly repeated recipe for disaster.

Being new here, I can't speak for "the way it was" with Scratch. But logic dictates a few simple facts. Due to Scratch's inherent design, the longer it is used, the less original things you will see done with it. You being the man and all see this more than most people. I mean, hey, "can you show me how to scroll a background? Hey, your project doesn't work right cause my guy keeps getting stuck in the walls!" Etc, etc, right? I think it is a testament to your veracity that you have stuck around this long, not to mention everything you have done for the community in that time. But as far as testing the limits of Scratch, they have probably been tested about as much as most people are willing.

And now watch me juggle flaming sticks of dynamite... what about the official Scratch mods/developers/ or whatever they are called. They may have completely different plans for Scratch than the average user. Plans that may have also changed since they originally introduced Scratch. Likewise, the lack of "pro" notoriety in off-site reviews and articles as compared to days of yore may also have something to do with their end of things. In the "what is cool now" mode of predominant internet culture, any application that does not regularly flaunt new bells and whistles runs the exponentially increasing risk of becoming "that old thing." That PlayerWorlds game system I mentioned earlier was and in many respects still is an amazing platform for average people to make multi-player games yet the entire system was strangled to death from the top on down. I guarantee you that even now, I could make a game using it that would be fun, free, and generate a large dedicated community of players for years to come. But ask the average person who knows anything about it and they'd say that it was just junk to begin with. I'm sure you have heard the same thing said about Scratch many times. The two sides of the coin is that the more accessible something is to the general public, the more dumbed down it must be. I suspect that this has a lot to do with all the new programmers doing animations, etc. This level of interaction has been cultivated purposefully by the "owners." I joined the ScratchEd community because I use it and PicoBlocks in my classroom. You would get a kick out of that end of Scratch if you are not already familiar with it. There are a lot of educators who can spew out $50 words for lesson plans and philosophies of education all day but don't have the first clue about Scratch scripting or programing in general. And there are many who are asking things like "Has anyone developed a curriculum for teaching math fundamentals to students age whatever to whatever?" Not many replies though. So obviously this is a direction that was intended for Scratch and it too has probably greatly affected the course of Scratch's development, or lack of. I am kind of wondering, where are these curriculum that have presumably been asked for for many years now? Or for that matter, where is the umbrella site that breaks down every collision detection method by its best usage, every mathematical formula for sprite movement, every usage of Sin and Cos to create radius movement arcs, etc. I bet it is largely thanks to the handful of Archmages around that we have the tutorials and resources that are available now. It is always too easy to assume that the developers are just being complacent. I suspect that one reason they leave so much up to the users is because taking a Here's How to do Everything approach would somewhat stifle the new user's sense of boundless opportunity. I can say that I think Scratch is the best vehicle I've ever seen for getting young people involved in general programing simply because it is easy to gets working results fast.

I think we might possibly agree that some more hands on loving care from the developers would be a good thing for everyone. For so much supposed emphasis on community and sharing, it is waaaayyy to difficult just to keep up with who you are talking to and/or helping in the forums, in project replies, etc. And I completely ignore the front page but I have noticed many people voicing displeasure over what is or isn't being promoted there. I made a post in the Suggestions forum last Thursday which is already on page two but has yet to be replied to. One thing is for sure, moving ahead in a positive direction requires action at the top. I haven't been here nearly long enough to know how much this has affected things although I'm sure you have a good idea by now.

But likewise, I have seen some really interesting projects go by more or less unnoticed in the Show and Tell forum. I don't know how much or even if the " Propose projects to get featured" thread is utilized but I could find some fault even there. Requirements like projects having to have less than 5 "love its" and yet having to be at least 2 weeks old??? That effectively says if you have a project that starts out popular (and so is presumably good), it can't be featured and thereby fosters an overall downshift in what is eligible across the board. No applications containing weapons or violence towards human or animals? I guess we better re-write all the History books too while we're at it. God forbid these kids be exposed to any fantasy violence before they get old enough to strap on machine guns and parachute out of airplanes into some hapless 3rd world country  we happen to be purchasing oil from. Better remove football and countless other American past times from the schools, TV, etc. as well.
How about not being able to remove your own reply to someone's post. You can shuck and jive me all you want to but that and many other similar obvious shortcomings in site design alone seem to point more towards hassles that no one wants to fix than insightful decisions towards a burgeoning life cycle. I mean, the "Adding Scratch Blocks" forums feature was a good idea but now the list of commands do not even match the latest Scratch version! Color () is over ()??? Where is "Ask () and Wait" ??? etc, etc. Again, it doesn't take a genius to figure out what the problem is here.

Perhaps the original designers never really intended for Scratch to take off like it did? Perhaps they assumed that the gauntlet would be picked up and heralded by the next generation but failed to anticipate see the long term side effects of early choices in direction. Maybe they too succumbed to the all too inevitable "I'm sick of it but you can't have it" mentality that kills wonderful things time and time again. Maybe we just want Scratch to be something more than it is supposed to be. The flip side of all the newbies doing boring stuff is of course bored oldbies who have seen it all. We can come up with a million ideas for improving the front page, showcasing the social side of Scratch while also fostering a beneficial system for in-depth programing exploration. And guys like you can and will take things into their own hands by going so far as to creating off-site content just for the good of the overall community. But in my opinion, either the course gets plotted and verified daily by the Captain(s) or else you end up landing in the wrong country and calling it the Indies. Maybe one of the founding tenants of Scratch is more to blame than anything else. That being the share and share alike philosophy, as long as your projects are uploaded to the Scratch homepage. Can you imagine if C+ users were limited to writing applications that could only be run privately or through some centralized C+ website? Insert whatever programing platform you want there. Yeah, you would maintain far more control over what is done with your stuff but you have to do continually something with that control.

The one thing I know for sure is that I am still fresh enough to be in love with this handy little thing. And I am gonna use it for as long as I can stand cause I've still got a lot I can learn. I seriously doubt that any Scratch applications will ever be used repeatedly by the general public but man, what a great cornerstone to build a lifetime of programing knowledge and fun from. Cause like many people, if it ain't fun, I'm moving on to something else. Life is too short and I'm already too old    And as an educator, I'm going to con as many students as I can with Scratch! Yeah, we're just having fun and writing cool games and stuff, no learning going on here ;P

My personal opinion is that the website design should be changed. Seriously, who would expect people to go searching for complex programs when everything that is displayed is a thumbnail?    It's kinda funny, actually.

It would be nice if the project stats (e.g., number of scripts) were displayed next to the project thumbnail. Preferrably highlighted with a color to make it stand out more. The color would change based on the stats.... say, if a project had zero or little scripts, it would be green or gray. The more complex projects would be marked with a different color though, like red.

That would certainly help attract more people to programming, I believe. ^^

Is there not a third party site specifically for advanced users, run by users? It seems like with all the awesome add ons (posting projects online outside of scratch, multiplayer, etc) that it would be doable. I know proposing something like this risks major flames but realistically, I don't think disenfranchising advanced users into oblivion is necessarily such a great course to follow. A downside is that a lot of people will still be negatively affected by that "official" front page but it really comes down to whether or not any solutions great or otherwise actually have a chance of being implemented here at Scratch. But even a user run "Advanced" site will have to wade through the same problems as well as new ones. For example, who decides who is allowed in? Who WANTS to spend all their time ensuring that current members actually live up to the requirements? There are always tons of thankless tasks to be doled out. But it can be done and has been before.

Jonathanpb has some good points but you can never just make people be nicer. Kind of like game hackers, they will always be there so you can point a finger at them while the ship goes down or else the owners can fix the hack holes and save the day. Some things, like flamers, are constants and as such simply must be dealt with. I suspect that the same people showing up constantly on the front page represents an exploit  being utilized by the notoriety hounds who again, will always be there. Apparently they are simply being allowed to run amuck freely.

And JSO chimed in with a very important angle that is also always prevalent in these type situations. (Always good to hear from you Mod types you know!!)  Less users means a higher ratio of good or interesting apps. More users and it becomes harder to sift out the gems. Seems to me like Tags were a good idea that was only partially implemented. As a new user, you are given no specific instructions for how to use them, ie. This tag means this, This tag means that, etc. So many people skip this step initially which turns into a bad habit that never ends. Other people (me??) use them haphazardly cause you can't really tell that they are doing a single thing for you. I think the Waffles tag craze really brings this point home. Ok, enough of my rambling, sorry.

Me, including the rest of the resistance of Scratchers who actually care about programming, are annoyed by this too. Let me take Time for Dinner" by clumeclo for example. This project has absolutely NOTHING that is difficult to program, in fact it is just a simple animation. However, it got featured a week or so ago.

I am thoroughly disturbed by this.

DawnLight wrote:

floatingmagictree wrote:

Me, including the rest of the resistance of Scratchers who actually care about programming, are annoyed by this too. Let me take Time for Dinner" by clumeclo for example. This project has absolutely NOTHING that is difficult to program, in fact it is just a simple animation. However, it got featured a week or so ago.

I am thoroughly disturbed by this.

As someone has previously mentioned before we should organize the front-page in three sections......
-Novice Level Programing
-Intermediate Level Programing
-Advance Level Programing

This way no matter what level of skill you are on Scratch, no one will complain. Is this a good idea?

Great idea. Illusionist also had a good idea: Top loved has 3 sections, Art, Games, and Animarion.

archmage wrote:

After being here for so long (about 2 years) I have noticed some big changes in the popular projects and the types of people using the website. When I joined, the scratch website was featured on websites that feature tech news and articles (reddit, slashdot, digg). At this time the community had many more experience to moderately experienced programmers and many intricate projects (like tetris) were created. It seems as though most of those experienced programmers have left, probably because they just wanted to try it or found better things to do with their time. Today's community is a less mature crowd with less developed computer skills. It seems like the website is more focused on social interaction among children then making and collaborating on intricate projects. Also, this community seems much less interested in programming, as most popular projects are animations.

In light of this, what do you think of the current scratch community and what would you change about it?

Personally, I liked it better when the community was more focused on programming and testing what could be done with scratch. The current community seems just remotely interested in programming and treat scratch like another version of youtube. The frontpage has become just terrible now, with projects from the same 10 users every time and none feature interesting scripts.

There are still users focused on programming - But the majority of the population isn't. I count myself among the programming-focused users.

fg123 wrote:

gettysburg11 wrote:

archmage wrote:

After being here for so long (about 2 years) I have noticed some big changes in the popular projects and the types of people using the website. When I joined, the scratch website was featured on websites that feature tech news and articles (reddit, slashdot, digg). At this time the community had many more experience to moderately experienced programmers and many intricate projects (like tetris) were created. It seems as though most of those experienced programmers have left, probably because they just wanted to try it or found better things to do with their time. Today's community is a less mature crowd with less developed computer skills. It seems like the website is more focused on social interaction among children then making and collaborating on intricate projects. Also, this community seems much less interested in programming, as most popular projects are animations.

In light of this, what do you think of the current scratch community and what would you change about it?

Personally, I liked it better when the community was more focused on programming and testing what could be done with scratch. The current community seems just remotely interested in programming and treat scratch like another version of youtube. The frontpage has become just terrible now, with projects from the same 10 users every time and none feature interesting scripts.

Oh, heck yes. I should probably make more projects myself, but I'm not a creative person, so project ideas don't come easily. When they do, I usually find out that I can't program it (I'm not that good with this)  . I really hate the front page these days; I pretty much don't look at it anymore, because there's almost never anything worth looking at.

This is the same with me.

____________________________

I also think scratch was better back then before there were 5 users joining per day. Some just stay there and post twice, have no projects and 5 favorites.

It's weird. Come to think of it, I personally post more than I make because like gettysburg, I think I program well but I am not creative. Which is why people don't look at my projects.

Exactly! Some of my projects are really bad, because I was bored and wanted to get another project out. I made a project a few days ago; nobody's looked at it besides me. Yes, I know it says 2 views. I looked at it on 2 different computers.

archmage wrote:

Today's community is a less mature crowd with less developed computer skills. It seems like the website is more focused on social interaction among children then making and collaborating on intricate projects. Also, this community seems much less interested in programming, as most popular projects are animations.
...
Personally, I liked it better when the community was more focused on programming and testing what could be done with scratch. The current community seems just remotely interested in programming and treat scratch like another version of youtube. The frontpage has become just terrible now, with projects from the same 10 users every time and none feature interesting scripts.

Funny how you refer to Scratch as another YouTube, as a recent article ("Scratch: Programming for all") refers to Scratch as being "the YouTube of interactive media."

Being that I am a moderator and not a Scratch Team member, I don't think I am fully capable of talking about the goal of Scratch. But I would like to point out that Scratch is part of the Lifelong Kindergarten Group. Let me pull of something from the LLK mission statement on the website:

In the Lifelong Kindergarten group... we believe that it is critically important for all children, from all backgrounds, to grow up knowing how to design, create, and express themselves. We are inspired by the ways children learn in kindergarten: when they create pictures with finger paint, they learn how colors mix together; when they create castles with wooden blocks, they learn about structures and stability. We want to extend this kindergarten style of learning, so that learners of all ages continue to learn through a process of designing, creating, experimenting, and exploring.

Scratch, being a part of LLK, seems to have not only been geared as a platform into learning about programming, but also shares as a medium for expressing creativity in general. Referring back to the article "Scratch: Programming for all":

We wanted to make it easy for everyone, of all ages, backgrounds, and interests, to program their own interactive stories, games, animations, and simulations, and share their creations with one another... Indeed, our primary goal is not to prepare people for careers as professional programmers but to nurture a new generation of creative, systematic thinkers comfortable using programming to express their ideas.

With such statements in mind, I don't believe excluding a younger crowd with their animations reflects upon aspirations of creativity that Scratch is intended to inspire and achieve.

I would have to agree on the point about the front page, as I would like to see more diversity besides animations. Perhaps the current channel system is not very well reflective of the diversity of projects available on the website for all to see, and the abuse of the tag system to exploit the searching function on the Scratch website does not help either. I would like to see a better categorization and search system in place of the current one.

DawnLight wrote:

As someone has previously mentioned before we should organize the front-page in three sections......
-Novice Level Programing
-Intermediate Level Programing
-Advance Level Programing

This way no matter what level of skill you are on Scratch, no one will complain. Is this a good idea?

I actually would like to see something like that happen. But one would have to consider the criteria for what is considered to be "Novice", "Intermediate" and "Advance". Suggestions to categorize projects on the front page by theme category would be interesting, too. Perhaps both can be combined together to reflect the diversity of projects on Scratch. 

cheddargirl wrote:

With such statements in mind, I don't believe excluding a younger crowd with their animations reflects upon aspirations of creativity that Scratch is intended to inspire and achieve.

It is true that programming does not get as much attention as some people may want these days. However, it is not entirely because of the community's preference for art. A lot of it has to do with what attracts one when one browses though projects. What makes one look at a project, and ignore the others?



With the current display, it depends on several factors:

1. Project thumbnail
2. Title
3. Author

Judging by the above, it is absolutely logical that with the current display, art will get more attention than programming. Right now it is impossible to see whether a project is a programming masterpiece or a picture without opening it. The only programs that get attention are the ones created by popular programmers.

But if the display changes to something like this:

1. Project thumbnail
2. Title
3. Author
4. Number of scripts

the problem will be partially solved. And it will not be excluding anybody, Cheddar. 

I wasn't here very long so I'm just gonna say idunno and leave it at that until I can form an opinion. Also, what's with the huge 1000 word blocks of text?