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dav99 wrote:

Alternatives wrote:

haha cs lewis is good but nowhere near tolkien

tolkien changed standards when he wrote LoTR you just can't compare anyone to him

Actually, Tolkien considered The Silmerilian his greatest work.

most tolkien fans haven't read that much of his work. Lord of The Rings, maybe if you search around The Children of Hurin but definitely not the majority of his works. i myself know only of one person besides my self who have even read beyond Lord of The Rings.

anyone else?
The Children of Hurin
The Legend of Sigurd and Gudrun
Mr. Bliss
The Silmerilian

are all excellent works that most people haven't even heard of.

(sorry, don't know how to make that little stripe thing above the 'u' tolkien so adored.)

fact remains, tolkien change the literature world.

(side not: +all those kids books he wrote)

Last edited by Alternatives (2012-11-22 08:02:21)

jukyter wrote:

werdna123 wrote:

person-wise, tolkien.

book-wise, tolkien.

i dunno cs lewis seemed pretty nice apart from christian ness
but yeah uh tolkien was great

nah, he was an extreme conservative too.

and mba, it's still extremely racist and biased.

and you can be inspired by religious books even if you aren't religious. maybe an atheist got the idea of having something in a book inspired by the qur'an.

so reasoning for christian authors being better being that you like books inspired by a holy book is terrible since anyone can be inspired by the bible!

Last edited by werdna123 (2012-11-22 12:14:40)

PlutoIsHades wrote:

I haven't read any C.S. Lewis, so my vote is going to Tolkien!

Read Narnia!

Lightnin wrote:

It's so strange how often people want to create topics where one thinker is pitted against another, as if it was a boxing match.

(Although, I did in fact make a project a while back in which two thinkers in the field of psychology literally duke it out. So maybe I shouldn't be so surprised.  )

Anyway - both great writers in their own way, and also quite good friends. Did you know that they met regularly to share their ideas with another, and drink strong Black Tea? IIRC correctly, Tolkien read the first drafts of LOTR to a group of friends that included CS Lewis, to get their constructive feedback.

Check it out here: The Inklings.

Not only lotr, but the Silmerilian.

Since nobody in this thread can spell, apparently: it's called The Silmarillion

werdna123 wrote:

jukyter wrote:

werdna123 wrote:

person-wise, tolkien.

book-wise, tolkien.

i dunno cs lewis seemed pretty nice apart from christian ness
but yeah uh tolkien was great

nah, he was an extreme conservative too.

wow werd way to destroy my childhood dreams
;_;

BTW, Treebeard was based on Lewis.

Alternatives wrote:

dav99 wrote:

Alternatives wrote:

haha cs lewis is good but nowhere near tolkien

tolkien changed standards when he wrote LoTR you just can't compare anyone to him

Actually, Tolkien considered The Silmerilian his greatest work.

most tolkien fans haven't read that much of his work. Lord of The Rings, maybe if you search around The Children of Hurin but definitely not the majority of his works. i myself know only of one person besides my self who have even read beyond Lord of The Rings.

anyone else?
The Children of Hurin
The Legend of Sigurd and Gudrun
Mr. Bliss
The Silmerilian

are all excellent works that most people haven't even heard of.

(sorry, don't know how to make that little stripe thing above the 'u' tolkien so adored.)


fact remains, tolkien change the literature world.

(side not: +all those kids books he wrote)

Yes, yes I have heard of those books. In fact I have many of them. I feal so proud now.

Last edited by dav99 (2012-11-22 21:29:37)

Lightnin wrote:

So there was this guy Joseph Campbell - he was a great literary scholar who studied mythology. He was actually friends with George Lucas, who was a big fan of his work, and in some sense used it to create Star Wars. Anyway, Joseph Campbell noticed that hero stories from all over the world seemed to follow similar themes, which he called "the monomyth".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monomyth

Basically, the hero has to journey into the unknown to get something: some kind of artifact, or knowledge, or magical something that will re-invigorate his homeland, and save his people. Once you understand the monomyth, you can see it in just about every story, and in every mythology.

The thing that's awesome about LOTR (or, maybe one of the many things) is that it puts a twist on the monomyth. Frodo journeys into the unknown alright, but it's not to get something to save his people, it's to get rid of something in order to save his people. My stepmother, who originally pointed this out to me, thought that perhaps it might have some bearing on the nuclear age -- that people had discovered such a dangerous power that there is a need to free ourselves from that dangerous idea. Perhaps you can even view the ring as representative of technology in general.

Anyway, hope that's not too off topic - I just think it's an interesting idea, and this discussion reminded me of it, so I thought I'd share it.

well lots of stories go about the hero having to kill someone or defeat some nation to make his homeland safe. that doesn't fit into the monomyth(or rather I can't see how it would fit in the monomyth theory) and a lot of stories use that plot.

there are also stories in which the hero is the artefact and ventures into the unknown not to get something, but because he has to for his own safety, eg. Harry Potter.

that being said, the monomyth is true to a degree, but I disagree with you when you say that once you understand it you can see it in every story and mythology.

Last edited by Alternatives (2012-11-23 09:23:09)

Lightnin wrote:

Alternatives wrote:

well lots of stories go about the hero having to kill someone or defeat some nation to make his homeland safe. that doesn't fit into the monomyth(or rather I can't see how it would fit in the monomyth theory) and a lot of stories use that plot.

Good point! I think this is an area that lots of scholars would argue about.

I would say that killing or defeating a threat is kind of like "slaying a dragon" - defeating a bad guy that is harming the community from which the hero came, and the "boon" is the removal of the harm / threat. In my mind, that's basically what's happening in Harry Potter, and even to some extent, LOTR. However, it's a different twist in that the way the dragon is slain in LOTR is by removing / destroying a super-powerful artifact created by the dragon (without getting tempted to use it, and be overcome by it, as Boromir was).

And ironically, that goal wasn't fulfilled.

Last edited by maxskywalker (2012-11-23 13:08:18)

werdna123 wrote:

jukyter wrote:

werdna123 wrote:

person-wise, tolkien.

book-wise, tolkien.

i dunno cs lewis seemed pretty nice apart from christian ness
but yeah uh tolkien was great

nah, he was an extreme conservative too.

and mba, it's still extremely racist and biased.

and you can be inspired by religious books even if you aren't religious. maybe an atheist got the idea of having something in a book inspired by the qur'an.

so reasoning for christian authors being better being that you like books inspired by a holy book is terrible since anyone can be inspired by the bible!

Wow, finally someone spells Qur'an correctly, rather than Koran! Oh, and for some reason i feel like that post was kind of insulting but i'm not sure why.... Besides, if an atheist (i think i'm thinking of the same thing as you) got inspiration from any holy book it might not be from the Qur'an, cause i haven't seen anything that would inspire a fictional story like LOTR or Chronicles of Narnia in it. Now maybe the Bible cause doesn't it have tons of stories and stuff? There would be a lot more to be inspired by in there with all of the stories rather than the Qur'an (unless they were writing a religious work but then again, why would an atheist write a religious work?)

Lightnin wrote:

So there was this guy Joseph Campbell - he was a great literary scholar who studied mythology. He was actually friends with George Lucas, who was a big fan of his work, and in some sense used it to create Star Wars. Anyway, Joseph Campbell noticed that hero stories from all over the world seemed to follow similar themes, which he called "the monomyth".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monomyth

Basically, the hero has to journey into the unknown to get something: some kind of artifact, or knowledge, or magical something that will re-invigorate his homeland, and save his people. Once you understand the monomyth, you can see it in just about every story, and in every mythology.

The thing that's awesome about LOTR (or, maybe one of the many things) is that it puts a twist on the monomyth. Frodo journeys into the unknown alright, but it's not to get something to save his people, it's to get rid of something in order to save his people. My stepmother, who originally pointed this out to me, thought that perhaps it might have some bearing on the nuclear age -- that people had discovered such a dangerous power that there is a need to free ourselves from that dangerous idea. Perhaps you can even view the ring as representative of technology in general.

Anyway, hope that's not too off topic - I just think it's an interesting idea, and this discussion reminded me of it, so I thought I'd share it.

The same goes for
Harry Potter,
Percy Jackson,
Peter, Susan, Edmund and Lucy Pevensie
(not sure if it'd go for John Carter),
Hercules,
Perseus, (well actually Perseus went and got rid of Medusa, much like Frodo got rid of the ring, rather than aquire knowledge or something)
the Argonauts,
Eragon,
etc, etc, etc........
You get what i mean.