Scratch

alldaykade28471 wrote:

OverPowered wrote:

alldaykade28471 wrote:

It's their own fault that people are poor. If they went to College, studied hard, they most-likely would not be poor. Unless of course they live in a city/state that does not have many jobs available.

Most of the rich people in the world have worked hard, therefore they are successful.

Most of the poor people in the world did not go to college, and/or are lazy. Therefore, they are poor.

Get me the stats and the source and I will respond. 

Apparently the moderator's edit on the first page and all of my subsequent notices haven't been enough.


If you can't cite it, it's wrong.
If you don't cite it, don't post it.
Citations lend reason to your work.
Sourceless talk is no more than hot air.
Facts are needed for factual arguments.

And it's not just you, alldaykade2847, sir, but most of the people on this thread.
Stop for TEN MINUTES, do a little research, and post a link to a credible source affirming you.
Otherwise, it's meaningless and the opponent need not respond.

Sorry!

I learned this (among other things) right here from Scratch and from the debate. 

What? No one said any of that here. Most of us acknowledge that it's mostly not your fault if you're poor.

alldaykade28471 wrote:

luiysia wrote:

alldaykade28471 wrote:

Wait, why couldn't they get regular healthcare? It's not like they HAVE to get ObamaCare or they will die...

What do you think ObamaCare does? (Just Wondering)

If you can't afford healthcare and you have a chronic illness like early onset (or just normal) arthritis that makes you unable to work, it just gets worse, which makes you even less able to work, which leads to not being able to afford food and bills, which basically leads to, if not death directly, then at least abject poverty and a really short, painful lifespan.


also it's "prideful," not "proudful"

edit: also genetic defects might cause this if you are poor

It's their own fault that people are poor. If they went to College, studied hard, they most-likely would not be poor. Unless of course they live in a city/state that does not have many jobs available.

Most of the rich people in the world have worked hard, therefore they are successful.

Most of the poor people in the world did not go to college, and/or are lazy. Therefore, they are poor.

Wow. I never thought you would actually argue this. Wooooow. Just... wow. I guess it's essay time.


For one thing, people who are poor are often born poor (or have some kind of illness, I'll get to that later). That means they have less opportunity to study in the first place, even if their parents don't have problems like alcoholism or drug addiction, because they need to do things all day because their parents are working, which also means their parents probably don't have time to help them out - you try doing all your schoolwork while also tired to the bone and without any help (run-ons are the best way to describe poverty). They probably live in neighborhoods that are unsafe and have bad influences everywhere because that's all they can afford. This leads to bad grades that make it pretty much impossible to get a scholarship to help them out, even if they're actually smart.

Even if they do get into a local college (and avoid the various things that could have caught them on the path to middle class), you still have to pay. A lot. Of course, student loan will help - but these are all various news articles explaining how student loan is basically a crushing nightmare of money to pay off. Plus, a basic four-year bachelor's degree often is not enough to get a job that will actually allow you to pay off said debt (this is in one of the above articles). Basically at this point, unless you're incredibly lucky, student loans set you back several years for a degree that won't help for a long while. This is added to the stress from working all day at a probably menial job that was the best you could get with your degree. Unless you get an incredibly lucky break at this point you are doomed.

Another thing that for some reason you didn't notice: disability. Things like arthritis, genetic defects like blindness, and more mental diseases like autism or Down syndrome make you unable to do a majority of jobs, and if you add in everything from before, pretty much everything's against you from the start (plus more if you are a minority or a woman). If they can't get healthcare, the diseases will get even worse and worse and fun fact, no one wants to hire someone financially crippled with student loans that also may be physically unable to walk. (edit: here is a source)

The idea that rich people are rich simply because they worked hard is ridiculous. It is true that rich people work like crazy (of course, not including people who were born into wealth). However, rich people tend to have a certain skill-set that is hard to just acquire, especially if you're raised poor). For instance, if you're a mechanic, even if you're the best mechanic in the city, chances are you will never be rich no matter how hard you work simply because mechanic jobs do not pay as much as, say, a CEO job, no matter how good you are. You probably won't be rich by being a number of essential jobs like some nurses, construction worker, rivet maker, etc., even if you put in 100 hours a week and neglect everything around you. Not to mention that being a stay-at-home mom (you know, the kind Romney loves - and he is right, they're important) has a paycheck of zero dollars. Certain skill sets are heavily rewarded in this world, and some are not - hear it from Warren Buffett himself: "... If you stick me down in the middle of Bangladesh or Peru or someplace, you find out how much this talent is going to produce in the wrong kind of soil... I work in a market system that happens to reward what I do very well - disproportionately well."

tl;dr: poor people aren't poor because they don't work hard - they do, but they're just disadvantaged from the start. And you repeating that isn't helping anything.

Last edited by luiysia (2012-10-26 23:07:21)

yup

zubblewu wrote:

alldaykade28471 wrote:

OverPowered wrote:

Get me the stats and the source and I will respond. 

Apparently the moderator's edit on the first page and all of my subsequent notices haven't been enough.


If you can't cite it, it's wrong.
If you don't cite it, don't post it.
Citations lend reason to your work.
Sourceless talk is no more than hot air.
Facts are needed for factual arguments.

And it's not just you, alldaykade2847, sir, but most of the people on this thread.
Stop for TEN MINUTES, do a little research, and post a link to a credible source affirming you.
Otherwise, it's meaningless and the opponent need not respond.

Sorry!

I learned this (among other things) right here from Scratch and from the debate. 

What? No one said any of that here. Most of us acknowledge that it's mostly not your fault if you're poor.

Learned that from the debate...

luiysia wrote:

alldaykade28471 wrote:

luiysia wrote:

If you can't afford healthcare and you have a chronic illness like early onset (or just normal) arthritis that makes you unable to work, it just gets worse, which makes you even less able to work, which leads to not being able to afford food and bills, which basically leads to, if not death directly, then at least abject poverty and a really short, painful lifespan.


also it's "prideful," not "proudful"

edit: also genetic defects might cause this if you are poor

It's their own fault that people are poor. If they went to College, studied hard, they most-likely would not be poor. Unless of course they live in a city/state that does not have many jobs available.

Most of the rich people in the world have worked hard, therefore they are successful.

Most of the poor people in the world did not go to college, and/or are lazy. Therefore, they are poor.

Wow. I never thought you would actually argue this. Wooooow. Just... wow. I guess it's essay time.


For one thing, people who are poor are often born poor (or have some kind of illness, I'll get to that later). That means they have less opportunity to study in the first place, even if their parents don't have problems like alcoholism or drug addiction, because they need to do things all day because their parents are working, which also means their parents probably don't have time to help them out - you try doing all your schoolwork while also tired to the bone and without any help (run-ons are the best way to describe poverty). They probably live in neighborhoods that are unsafe and have bad influences everywhere because that's all they can afford. This leads to bad grades that make it pretty much impossible to get a scholarship to help them out, even if they're actually smart.

Even if they do get into a local college (and avoid the various things that could have caught them on the path to middle class), you still have to pay. A lot. Of course, student loan will help - but these are all various news articles explaining how student loan is basically a crushing nightmare of money to pay off. Plus, a basic four-year bachelor's degree often is not enough to get a job that will actually allow you to pay off said debt (this is in one of the above articles). Basically at this point, unless you're incredibly lucky, student loans set you back several years for a degree that won't help for a long while. This is added to the stress from working all day at a probably menial job that was the best you could get with your degree. Unless you get an incredibly lucky break at this point you are doomed.

Another thing that for some reason you didn't notice: disability. Things like arthritis, genetic defects like blindness, and more mental diseases like autism or Down syndrome make you unable to do a majority of jobs, and if you add in everything from before, pretty much everything's against you from the start (plus more if you are a minority or a woman). If they can't get healthcare, the diseases will get even worse and worse and fun fact, no one wants to hire someone financially crippled with student loans that also may be physically unable to walk. (edit: here is a source)

The idea that rich people are rich simply because they worked hard is ridiculous. It is true that rich people work like crazy (of course, not including people who were born into wealth). However, rich people tend to have a certain skill-set that is hard to just acquire, especially if you're raised poor). For instance, if you're a mechanic, even if you're the best mechanic in the city, chances are you will never be rich no matter how hard you work simply because mechanic jobs do not pay as much as, say, a CEO job, no matter how good you are. You probably won't be rich by being a number of essential jobs like some nurses, construction worker, rivet maker, etc., even if you put in 100 hours a week and neglect everything around you. Not to mention that being a stay-at-home mom (you know, the kind Romney loves - and he is right, they're important) has a paycheck of zero dollars. Certain skill sets are heavily rewarded in this world, and some are not - hear it from Warren Buffett himself: "... If you stick me down in the middle of Bangladesh or Peru or someplace, you find out how much this talent is going to produce in the wrong kind of soil... I work in a market system that happens to reward what I do very well - disproportionately well."

tl;dr: poor people aren't poor because they don't work hard - they do, but they're just disadvantaged from the start. And you repeating that isn't helping anything.

Dads can stay-at-home too!

Also, my dad is a teacher. Those people that sort of, educate and make it possible for kids to grow up and get these middle-class jobs we're talking about. My dad not so much, but it seems their favorite thing to do is complain about pay. Teachers don't get paid much for essentially making society function.

Well, we're getting more and more reports regarding this topic. I guess this topic is done and closed.