Scratch

stevetheipad wrote:

Not sure I support this as it is.

However, you can always make a forum outside of Scratch for it. 

But then it would take three months to get approved 

I hate that rule.

Greenatic wrote:

cheddargirl wrote:

When Miscellaneous was replaced, there was concern of too many subdivisions would cause the forums to look more cluttered, so the idea was to stick with more generalized topics.

That being said: most academic topics usually fit fairly well under the RaP forum since they usually involve some element of reading and observation. It does, however, require some intuition about what is okay to talk about in here and which are probably better discussed elsewhere or put into a Scratch project (case in point: some schools and colleges offer courses in political science and sociology, which often brings about topics which are probably better off talking about in a debate forum.  )

@coolhogs: The Educators forum actually was designed for teachers and educators who needed a place to talk about incorporating Scratch into the academic world. That has moved over to a new website called ScratchED. 

Science fair: MaC.
Algebra: RaP.
Art projects: MaC.
US History: RaP.

And so on...

Having an Academics forum brings about more organization, and encourages academic discussion, which is (almost) always a good thing.   

Thanks to all above supporters!   

Yes, that was discussed previously when Miscellaneous was being replaced, there some consideration to make more categories like Academics, Games, Programming, etc.

But like I've said before, the concern is if there's too much division - that why the ultimate decision ended up with two categories that were more generalized. Whether or not to subdivide it further remains to be seen, but for now, it's just going to remain as two to keep the non-Scratch categories to a minimum.

Greenatic wrote:

cheddargirl wrote:

Greenatic wrote:

Science fair: MaC.
Algebra: RaP.
Art projects: MaC.
US History: RaP.

And so on...

Having an Academics forum brings about more organization, and encourages academic discussion, which is (almost) always a good thing.   

Thanks to all above supporters!   

Yes, that was discussed previously when Miscellaneous was being replaced, there some consideration to make more categories like Academics, Games, Programming, etc.

But like I've said before, the concern is if there's too much division - that why the ultimate decision ended up with two categories that were more generalized. Whether or not to subdivide it further remains to be seen, but for now, it's just going to remain as two to keep the non-Scratch categories to a minimum.

Making less categories just concentrates all the chaos.  It does nothing to minimize it.

It depends on how diverse it gets. Less categories clumps topics together, but having more makes the forums a lot bigger than necessary. For example, given more subdivisions and splittage:
- Academics
- Games
- Programming
- Technology
- Arts and Crafts
- Movies and Books
- Sports and Physical Activities

which would all be nice but that makes the forums bigger. 

It's kind of a balance between forum subdivision and thread organization. Lumping might concentrate the chaos in some cases, but more more forum subdivision makes the forum structure too long and daunting to scroll through; something which may not necessarily do good since the Scratch Forums main goal is to provide a forum space to talk about Scratch. It's kind of like scrolling through a library - a library's organization depends on it's reader base. To give an example, if you look through the technology section but want engineering books only, it's daunting since the technology books are lumped together with mechanics and photography so one might argue for a section for engineering books only. But that might make the library search catalog bigger and maybe the library is more geared towards English History students that there isn't a demand for it.

Like I've said before, whether or not to subdivide the forums further remains to be seen, but for now, it's just going to remain as two to keep the non-Scratch categories to a minimum. There just isn't enough academic-related topics to justify splitting at this time. Same thinking should be applied when suggesting other categories not quite related to Scratch. It's why I'm on-the-fence when it comes to additional forum splitting.

Support, RaP and MaC are to general for this stuff.

Greenatic wrote:

logiblocs wrote:

Support, RaP and MaC are to general for this stuff.

Thanks!  Adding to the list... 

@cheddargirl:  Academics is a special case because Scratch is supposed to be educational...so this wouldn't really be a non-Scratch forum at all, it would be furthering Scratch's purpose.

Just from observation, there just hasn't been enough academic-related posts that I see that otherwise justifies further splittage. from the other two topics that exist now.

That's pretty much why I'm on the fence about the issue; Having more topics like Academics would be good - that was actually one of the original suggestions that came up when the ST was deciding about what sections to use to replace Miscellaneous, but it leads to the question of why there should a separate forum when the other two can already are inclusive of academic topics (yet not many people create such academic topics.  ). For now, it seems to just fold over into the other two categories.

Last edited by cheddargirl (2012-04-05 19:45:49)

Greenatic wrote:

logiblocs wrote:

Support, RaP and MaC are to general for this stuff.

Thanks!  Adding to the list... 

@cheddargirl:  Academics is a special case because Scratch is supposed to be educational...so this wouldn't really be a non-Scratch forum at all, it would be furthering Scratch's purpose.

I agree with Greenatic.
Currently:
Science Fair-MaC
Essay-MaC
Algebra-RaP
US history-RaP
Art class-MaC
With an academics forum, we could put all of these in one place. And it's scratch.mit.edu, not scratch.mit.com or scratch.mit.org or whatever. it's .edu.

Greenatic wrote:

cheddargirl wrote:

Greenatic wrote:

Thanks!  Adding to the list... 

@cheddargirl:  Academics is a special case because Scratch is supposed to be educational...so this wouldn't really be a non-Scratch forum at all, it would be furthering Scratch's purpose.

Just from observation, there just hasn't been enough academic-related posts that I see that otherwise justifies further splittage. from the other two topics that exist now.

That's pretty much why I'm on the fence about the issue; Having more topics like Academics would be good - that was actually one of the original suggestions that came up when the ST was deciding about what sections to use to replace Miscellaneous, but it leads to the question of why there should a separate forum when the other two can already are inclusive of academic topics (yet not many people create such academic topics.  ). For now, it seems to just fold over into the other two categories.

Part of the reason for an Academics forum is to encourage these types of topics, and then allow them to flourish.

Even without "Academic" being stated specifically, there's nothing to discourage them from posting it either!    I've seen a few around before so it's clear that the names RaP and MaC isn't a barrier for academic topics - but I see they lose interest easily; more likely than not it's an interest issue (case in point: even if there was an Academic forum, heavy-handed topics like Algebra and Calculus usually do not last very long unless there is enough interest to keep them going). So an Academics category doesn't necessarily guarantee interest.

Part of the issue when splitting Miscellaneous was that it should be organized yet not too diverse that it makes the non-Scratch areas clunky - it started off with several categories during the discussion process with the ST, but then it was realized that all the other categories could simply fold over into two categories, one for creating things, one for watching/observation. Generalized enough to cover most topics (like Art, History, Programming, Science, etc.) without need for further splittage and forum expansion, but not too generalized that there's no focus like what happened in Miscellaneous. As much as I like the idea of an Academic category (and I really do), they just fold over into the two categories present... not to mention I find it strange that people would be discouraged from posting Academic topics in the first place (perhaps those should be added in the descriptions of MaC and RaP somehow?)

Mokat wrote:

Greenatic wrote:

logiblocs wrote:

Support, RaP and MaC are to general for this stuff.

Thanks!  Adding to the list... 

@cheddargirl:  Academics is a special case because Scratch is supposed to be educational...so this wouldn't really be a non-Scratch forum at all, it would be furthering Scratch's purpose.

I agree with Greenatic.
Currently:
Science Fair-MaC
Essay-MaC
Algebra-RaP
US history-RaP
Art class-MaC
With an academics forum, we could put all of these in one place. And it's scratch.mit.edu, not scratch.mit.com or scratch.mit.org or whatever. it's .edu.

Exactly, keep them all in one place. Like Paddle2See always says "Let's keep this discussion all in one place."

Last edited by funelephant (2012-04-07 19:27:14)

Greenatic wrote:

cheddargirl wrote:

Even without "Academic" being stated specifically, there's nothing to discourage them from posting it either!    I've seen a few around before so it's clear that the names RaP and MaC isn't a barrier for academic topics - but I see they lose interest easily; more likely than not it's an interest issue (case in point: even if there was an Academic forum, heavy-handed topics like Algebra and Calculus usually do not last very long unless there is enough interest to keep them going). So an Academics category doesn't necessarily guarantee interest.

Lots of other thread lose interest quickly too, but MaC and RaP don't seem to really encourage academic discussion the way they are worded, leading to a lack of academic threads to start with.  Also, they would probably seem like a lot more if they were organized together.

(Also, foreign language threads don't seem to generate much interest from native speakers, for which, I understand, they are intended.  Following your logic, we should make one large Foreign Languages category and delete all the specialized ones, because I'm sure they take up more real estate than anything the ST planned for Miscellaneous replacements.)

Well, like I said before, forum categories get split when there's enough need for them; for the forum langauges section they get split when there's enough evidence that there's enough native speakers for that topic. Other than that, notice how for other languages they're all grouped together instead of making a single topic for every possible language out there. Same as I would apply any possible topic that could come out of the MaC and RaP forum (or any forum in particular. 

cheddargirl wrote:

Part of the issue when splitting Miscellaneous was that it should be organized yet not too diverse that it makes the non-Scratch areas clunky - it started off with several categories during the discussion process with the ST, but then it was realized that all the other categories could simply fold over into two categories, one for creating things, one for watching/observation. Generalized enough to cover most topics (like Art, History, Programming, Science, etc.) without need for further splittage and forum expansion, but not too generalized that there's no focus like what happened in Miscellaneous. As much as I like the idea of an Academic category (and I really do), they just fold over into the two categories present... not to mention I find it strange that people would be discouraged from posting Academic topics in the first place (perhaps those should be added in the descriptions of MaC and RaP somehow?)

You make a powerful (although repetitive) point.  However, I believe that Academics is not a non-Scratch category,  Rather, it is the essence of Scratch itself.

But the same could be said of RaP and MaC in general. They were created because they matched closely with the values of the MIT Media Lab. Actually, backtracking a bit - the Scratch Forums could do without them either! 

Also, academic threads do not seem to be discouraged; however, the titles "Things I'm Making and Creating" and "Things I'm Reading and Playing" don't exactly encourage them, either.   

Seems odd, though, that kind of was the intent when RaP and MaC were created, that people would be more encouraged to put those topics.

It's just after spending so much time trying to make non-Scratch categories as small as possible, the talks with Paddle and Lightning and the e-mails being sent back and forth, it seems so strangely non-intuitive to go backwards and break it up further. It's why I'm just very hesitant to split it out.

Last edited by cheddargirl (2012-04-08 11:00:42)

Greenatic wrote:

cheddargirl wrote:

Greenatic wrote:

Lots of other thread lose interest quickly too, but MaC and RaP don't seem to really encourage academic discussion the way they are worded, leading to a lack of academic threads to start with.  Also, they would probably seem like a lot more if they were organized together.


Well, like I said before, forum categories get split when there's enough need for them; for the forum langauges section they get split when there's enough evidence that there's enough native speakers for that topic. Other than that, notice how for other languages they're all grouped together instead of making a single topic for every possible language out there. Same as I would apply any possible topic that could come out of the MaC and RaP forum (or any forum in particular. 
So you're saying if we supporters generate enough demand, it's a yes?

I can't guarantee a yes (it would still have to undergo a round of talk like any formation of a new forum section), but that's really one of the biggest pressing issues. There should be enough threads to support an Academic section, like any other forum section.

You make a powerful (although repetitive) point.  However, I believe that Academics is not a non-Scratch category,  Rather, it is the essence of Scratch itself.

But the same could be said of RaP and MaC in general. They were created because they matched closely with the values of the MIT Media Lab. Actually, backtracking a bit - the Scratch Forums could do without them either! 
But I'm not saying to delete RaP and MaC.  I'm saying we should add Academics!  It seems like it would be an even closer fit for the MIT Media Lab's values--after all, they are an academic institution.
Actually, the Media Lab's focus is on "the study, invention, and creative use of digital technologies to enhance the ways that people think, express, and communicate ideas, and explore new scientific frontiers.", not purely academics in a general sense. Here, academics, depending on what it is, can be either part of the reading/playing process or the creative one. Hence why it got folded over in the end during the forum restructure process.

Also, academic threads do not seem to be discouraged; however, the titles "Things I'm Making and Creating" and "Things I'm Reading and Playing" don't exactly encourage them, either.   

Seems odd, though, that kind of was the intent when RaP and MaC were created, that people would be more encouraged to put those topics.

It's just after spending so much time trying to make non-Scratch categories as small as possible, the talks with Paddle and Lightning and the e-mails being sent back and forth, it seems so strangely non-intuitive to go backwards and break it up further. It's why I'm just very hesitant to split it out.
Let's look at the official forum discriptions:

MaC: art, music, programming languages, crafts
RaP: books, TV, movies, art, music, videogames

Granted, books are educational, but that seems to be all.  Science?  Math?  Ancient history?  I don't see those anywhere.

That's because it depends on the subject of the thread. For example: making a science project would fall under MaC because you're making something, but talking about a science article would fall under RaP because you're reading something. Ancient history is likely to fall under RaP because you usually read something, but if you're building a diorama or writing a history essay then it falls under MaC. The last Math thread I saw talking about making your own math problems - so it went other MaC - and I would imagine that general math talk could fall under RaP being as a non-creative hobby in general as that is the general idea behind the RaP forums.

Last edited by cheddargirl (2012-04-08 23:19:35)

A few years ago I took a robotics course over the summer and - guess what! - that's how I was introduced to Scratch. We used it as an introduction to very simple programming, and overall, I love it. We did have assignments on it to work on our programming skillz, and that does count as education because (obviously) we're learning about how to program. So maybe that could be another part of your idea: how we used Scratch to learn.
I support this idea!

Greenatic wrote:

Thanks to MrMonk999 and Zangooser!      

cheddargirl wrote:

That's because it depends on the subject of the thread. For example: making a science project would fall under MaC because you're making something, but talking about a science article would fall under RaP because you're reading something. Ancient history is likely to fall under RaP because you usually read something, but if you're building a diorama or writing a history essay then it falls under MaC. The last Math thread I saw talking about making your own math problems - so it went other MaC - and I would imagine that general math talk could fall under RaP being as a non-creative hobby in general as that is the general idea behind the RaP forums.

Hence the problem.   

Depends on the point of view.    Something I've been noticing is that some Scratchers prefer topics that have a creative component to them over topics (MaC), or vice versa where they prefer reading up on something (RaP), some might find it slightly annoying, other may not. It's all on perspective. 

Greenatic wrote:

cheddargirl wrote:

Greenatic wrote:

Thanks to MrMonk999 and Zangooser!      


Hence the problem.   

Depends on the point of view.    Something I've been noticing is that some Scratchers prefer topics that have a creative component to them over topics (MaC), or vice versa where they prefer reading up on something (RaP), some might find it slightly annoying, other may not. It's all on perspective. 

But if you want to, say, find a bunch of science threads...you have to search through both.

There's more than one way forum topics can be organized: what ultimately happens is that it may suit some while not necessarily others (note that this goes for any other forum community as well). A non-academic example: if someone was a Sonic fan and wanted to look up Sonic fan-fiction made by other Scratchers while talking about Sonic-based shows and games, they too would have to look through both MaC and RaP to find all possible Sonic threads on the Scratch Forums. A non-Scratch Forum example: deviantART reorganized its forum structure, eliminating subdivisions for some art topics so some topics dedicated to specific art mediums got lumped in with others (crafts got lumped into traditional art, fractals got lumped into digital art, etc.), suiting artists of various talents and mixed media but not those involved in a single specific medium.

It just ended up being MaC and RaP in the end after several talks of forum reorganization being that Scratch focuses more on creativity and being inspired by other media around us. But as expected, some might welcome this change, others not. Same can be said when other forums go under a restructure change - it's impossible to satisfy everybody. 

What I would really like more is a better search function, such as tags for forum threads which gives alternative forums of organization, one that's independent of forum structure. But that's something to be brought up later for possible plans to switch to a new forum software.