Scratch

It is important to say where you got your information and inspiration from. Taking an example from books...what if you copied a novel and only changed the names of the characters and the setting and claimed you created it? Well, that is clearly gross plagiarism. In school projects you have to say where you got your info from. It seems only fair to explain where you got your programming idea from.

It seems to me that plagiarism is a different issue than the open source issue.

There is no way right now to let others run your program without also being able to see the code---the .sb file has to be readable in order for the code to run.  Since the Scratch team is dedicated to open-source, they are unlikely to ever add copy-protection to allow you to hide your source.

You can certainly decide not to show anyone your work, except personally on a computer that you control physical access to, but don't hold your breath waiting for a way to show the program without sharing the code.

IMO, sharing projects and code is what Scratch is all about.

If you upload a project, it should be on the understanding that people who like what you have done are going to download it and see if there is anything they can learn from or use in their own projects.

Yes, some people will abuse the privelidge, and change nothing but the "creator name" but at the end of the day, does that hurt you in any way?

I'd rather see the community remain completely open and put up with the occasional abuser, than see restrictions and limits put in place.  Do that, and the dedicated plagarist will get around the restrictions whilst the person thats trying to learn from you won't be able to.

In the meantime, if there is anything in my projects that you can use, feel free to *yoink* it.  That's why I put them up in the first place.

The only option would be to pre compile downloads into executables so that the source is not viewable or useable, however that defeats the whole objective of being able to point out coding techniques in some cases good and in others bad.

Given that the objective of scratch is to openly introduce people to coding I find the whole 'I did it first' approach rather a non issue in this context.

For those people that wish to enclose their creations and concern themselves with issues  such as copyright, intellectual copyright or first past the post glory to posting a stip of code then perhaps scratch is not the product they seek given the limitations of the whole product envionment.

It may be courteous on the part of someone posting a facsimile of an existing work but in reality most of the techniques posted are probably plagiarisms of coding else where in the big wide world albeit not in the same format.

copyright (c) 2007, All reference and text subject to restriction in duplication and reverberation, only the whole text and nothing but the text may be replicated, copied, transmitted or facisimile produced with the strict consent of the owner, on and on and on and on....

or

feel free to use any of the text, cut it, chop it, use a bit, lose a bit, in any order or the same order.

or

you are able to use the above text but you cannot replicate the order in which the use of the letter 'a' is spaced or distributed which is unique to the originator. Where it is the case that the letter 'a' is implemented in the same or similar distribution then it should be removed or replaced with an alternative unless prior permission to use the letter 'a' in that the given sequence of spacing is sought and agreed in writing.

To sum up courtesy like darwins theory will be subject to natural selection.

Come sit at my table if the table is set fulfil yourself and be happy, and if by courtesy you see fit to tell of your experience while doing the same then that my friend is my privilage. - emyl nosti

Last edited by PeterB (2007-06-01 13:18:50)

Hello everybody. I have read this topic and i would like to give my opinion. I think that if you copied a game and altered it slightly e.g. change sound, music etc. the credit for the game should go to the original creator.

if you took the game and altered the game code alot e.g. movement, sprites etc. you should not have to give credit or even say it was based on another game because evry person who created pong can accuse the other person of stealing their idea when they purely wanted to make a pong game.

when a person takes media from other projects that the creator has made himself then credit must be given!

I agree, in part with Nabster on this issue, anything made with this *FREE* software is technically the property of the Scratch Team who developed this program, and partially the Squeak team, for they made the original environment, that is, unless the user *CREATED* and not stole or downloaded from some other website, the images and audio, but the code would still belong to Scratch and Squeak, using their decisions on what to do with it. Therefore, if what I posted above is true, all code made in Scratch that is "Plagiarized" you are plagiarizing from Scratch, the Scratch Team of Developers, Squeak, the Squeak Team of Developers, and anyone who has done the *REAL* coding of this application or its predecessors.
This is only my view and I will take no responsibility for any trouble, pain, inconvenience, or anything considered by you to be "bad" in any way, shape, or form.
Sorry if anything stated in the paragraph above happened to you,
xyxzergames 

jamie wrote:

Is it allowed if someone takes your game, changes the theme, then calls it "their creation"? Because I created a game called "Pong 2.1" and a week later, a user called [removed] redid the background, and called "her creation" and I am really annoyed with her for taking credit for MY game, I just want to know if it is a Scratch rule if you can slightly alter a game and call it yours.

Jamie

MY GAME: Pong 2.1
[removed]'s GAME: Wack-Pong

Yeah i noticed that to once someone just reposeted my game and called it theirs i even downloaded it everything was exatly the same the user was called david chen he posted it a day or so after mine

Last edited by Paddle2See (2011-08-06 05:18:11)

The ones that amuse me are the ones that re-post the stuff that come with Scratch as their own code, as if nobody will recognise them...

Earlier today I saw some of the bundled examples listed under multiple names, and my first thought was that people are testing out sharing.  They open a project and click share.  They might not even be thinking of the public showcase value.

I think the only real solution is a technical one, not a social one.   Build history into the project file itself.  Have this history on the website ... linking to earlier versions.

Leave it to people to determine how major a change something is ... just having the breadcrumb trail would be enough to solve the squabbles.

If the history is already being recorded, it would be really neat to have what teefal suggested: an automatic link on the web site:
  this program modified from the following ...

It would help reinforce the notion of sharing and of giving credit where it is due.

Scratch provides a great opportunity to learn how to program.  (I never got anywhere with BASIC.)  If I got REALLY serious about programming it's possible I'd take some courses and switch to one of the languages like C.  If I had a great idea, I'd write it in C and copyright it.  (None of this is liable to happen in my case....)   :-)

As a real beginner, right now I want to know, "How did they turn on a flashlight in a dark room?" or "If two characters are talking how do I change the background at the same time?"  Other peoples' scripts show me how to achieve all sorts of great effects. Otherwise, I'd never get anywhere.  And if I upload one of my amateur projects, I hope that people will suggest improvements in the scripting so I can continue to learn.

Mohlar has uploaded 8 demos of Sound and Music programs so other members can enhance their projects.  Shanesta has listed where she found the graphics and sound-effects programs that she used to make her archery game so incredible.  The Scratch Team and our fellow members are terrific teachers.

So, for Scratch I'm too busy learning to worry much about someone copying my work. And so many projects are uploaded every day that within 24 hours anything I've uploaded has practically disappeared!  The very, very best get special billing so they stay alive. 

But, then, I'm an old guy (see my picture) and no longer in a competitive environment like a school so it's easier for me to be casual about these things.  I just hope to get better and better at Scratch.  :-)

Also: if I create a project that is personal to me, I share it with a few friends by attaching it to emails.  They run it on their own computers and that's it.  No copying, no plagiarizing, no competition, no hassle.  Just enjoyment.

Let's don't hide the scripts.  How will we learn? 

As for people claiming credit for your work....it's good to think about how to handle that because it's going to happen all your life.  Especially if you end up in a competitive workplace.  A few people WILL steal if it will bring them a promotion.  Or a raise.  So it's a good thing to think about.

Sorry - this doesn't solve the serious problems raised in this Topic.  But lots of you have expressed good ideas on this subject.  The Scratch Team is already working to improve things. 

The people who just COPY our projects won't have learned anything...so we'll quickly leave them behind.  Too bad for them...  ;-(

Oh, one more thing.  Remember the Credits at the end of movies?  We can always add a screen at the end of a project thanking people who have led the way....  :-)

Last edited by Larry828 (2007-06-18 22:54:12)

kevin_karplus wrote:

Adding credits to animations is a good idea, and similar ideas can be used for games as well.  It won't keep people from stealing, though, as changing the credits (or removing them) is easier than modifying the game to do anything substantive.

Establishing open-source sharing without plagiarism is difficult, as it requires that explicit credit be given for bits of code that were taken from others.  Without even comment blocks for authors to put their names in sprites, and with a microscopic comment block for the whole project, giving proper credit is hard work.

You're absolutely right, Kevin.  So maybe we shouldn't devote too much energy to finding cheaters.  The time and effort of the Team and the Members might better be devoted to enhancing the learning environment.  (If students suffer because someone else has claimed credit for their project, then the students and teachers should work out proper procedures....very likely helped by time-stamping the uploads.)

But when a project is done, most of us move right on to the next challenge, the next level of difficulty. 

The Scratch community is HUGE.  So large, in fact, that if one submits a project today, by tomorrow it's already on page 19 of Recent Projects!  Because of the avalanche of uploads, most projects get about 5 viewings and 0 Favorites.  Plagiarizers flourish in huge, anonymous environments.

Perhaps Scratch should move in the direction of forming small, self-selected groups of people with shared interests.  Some people are most interested in GAMES, even specific games.  Other people are interested in STORY-TELLING.  Some people are interested in contributing RESOURCES to the community, like additional programs that can be used to enhance projects.  Other people are most interested in developing their PROGRAMMING skills. 

One advantage of smaller groups is that people working closely together develop relationships that discourage an individual from ripping off the work of a friend.  Huge anonymous groups like the Scratch membership can exert no peer pressure to maintain standards of conduct.

Larry828 wrote:

[snip]
Perhaps Scratch should move in the direction of forming small, self-selected groups of people with shared interests.  Some people are most interested in GAMES, even specific games.  Other people are interested in STORY-TELLING.  Some people are interested in contributing RESOURCES to the community, like additional programs that can be used to enhance projects.  Other people are most interested in developing their PROGRAMMING skills. 

One advantage of smaller groups is that people working closely together develop relationships that discourage an individual from ripping off the work of a friend.  Huge anonymous groups like the Scratch membership can exert no peer pressure to maintain standards of conduct.

This is a pretty good idea.
Has anyone sugested this already? And if so, how would they work differently than the Galeries?