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#6801 2013-02-08 09:09:02
Re: BYOB 3 - Discussion Thread
Hardmath123 wrote:
project notes, creator name, and other junk like that
Oh, they don't include the notes in the download file anymore... 
Things I've made: kurt | scratchblocks2 | this cake
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#6802 2013-02-08 09:33:33
- shadow_7283
- Scratcher
- Registered: 2007-11-07
- Posts: 1000+
Re: BYOB 3 - Discussion Thread
Hardmath123 wrote:
Also, has Jens started on the server yet, and if so, is it in Python? I'd suggest in the end using Google App Engine to get the final release at snap.edu or something.
Why use Python when there's Node.js? Python has hacky WebSockets, but they don't match the greatness of tools like Socket.io. And I imagine at some point WebSockets will play a role in Snap!
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#6803 2013-02-08 09:38:15
Re: BYOB 3 - Discussion Thread
Wow, this work on porting Scratch projects to Snap is *really* exciting!
I've just put cloning and fast-tracking (similar to turbo mode) into Snap. Cloning is still extremely experimental, and, as Brian pointed out, not what's going to be the real thing. But you can do some nice tricks with it, nowhere near Scratch's aweseome particle systems, though (but projects like my musical "Round" project are very much possible and working). This should let you play with converting most of Scratch's features in projects to Snap now (with some glaring exceptions, especially text in costumes and the missing OF block).
In the meantime I'll be finishing up on the backend side... (Relax, it's our own, but it'll be an open, documented API)
I'll sign off for the weekend now, have a nice one!
Jens Mönig
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#6804 2013-02-08 11:12:30
Re: BYOB 3 - Discussion Thread
xly wrote:
But one may regret that Byob OOP does not expose the traditionnal CLASS instruction as used by Java,JS and others.
(sigh) First, you're wrong about Javascript, which does not have classes! It is a prototyping OOP system, like ours. Interesting that you make that mistake.
Second, you want a Circle class? Make a circle sprite and HIDE it. Done.
Scratch cloning, which everyone loves, is a prototyping OOP system! It's an inadequate one because it doesn't support message passing to individual sprites, and the clone, once created, shares no information with its parent. (And they're temporary, which is good for some purposes but not others.) But kids just dive into it and start making projects, which is why Hardmath and Jens are so enthusiastic about it.
Now just imagine for a moment that they replaced the Scratch clone system with something completely identical except that you couldn't actually see or explore the behavior of your original sprite while programming it! That would be a class/instance system, and it would be the death of cloning as a feature for kids.
You're just wrong about this. Like all Java programmers, your mind has been poisoned on this question. Just trust me.
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#6805 2013-02-08 11:46:00
Re: BYOB 3 - Discussion Thread
Hardmath123 wrote:
The best way would be for you to be able to type the project's URL under "open…" (open>Scratch 2.0 project>[dialog box]). You would send the URL to a Python server running my converter, and I would return the XML from a GET request. Happy?
I guess. Especially if I can pick up another tab in my browser and drag it into the dialog. 
But what I really want is for you to scrape my Scratch 2.0 user page for project names and list them in the Open dialog, and let me click on a project name same as I can for a project name on my disk!
(I admit, I'm old fashioned; on my disk is where I want my projects to live altogether. This whole cloud business is just an invitation for advertisers and the NSA to scrape things like birthdates off kids' projects.)
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#6806 2013-02-08 11:51:20
Re: BYOB 3 - Discussion Thread
@bharvey "Like all Java programmers, your mind has been poisoned on this question."
Sorry Brian , but I've never written a line of Java or JS in my life. As I've underlined it, I'm just a layman.
I'm referring to Processing, a language based upon Java, largely used by Visual designers and artists. See : http://www.openprocessing.org/browse/
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#6807 2013-02-08 11:53:55
- Hardmath123
- Scratcher
- Registered: 2010-02-19
- Posts: 1000+
Re: BYOB 3 - Discussion Thread
Jens wrote:
Wow, this work on porting Scratch projects to Snap is *really* exciting!
I've just put cloning and fast-tracking (similar to turbo mode) into Snap. Cloning is still extremely experimental, and, as Brian pointed out, not what's going to be the real thing. But you can do some nice tricks with it, nowhere near Scratch's aweseome particle systems, though (but projects like my musical "Round" project are very much possible and working). This should let you play with converting most of Scratch's features in projects to Snap now (with some glaring exceptions, especially text in costumes and the missing OF block).
In the meantime I'll be finishing up on the backend side... (Relax, it's our own, but it'll be an open, documented API)
I'll sign off for the weekend now, have a nice one!
Cool, I'm almost done myself—I'll just fix the custom blocks and iron out a few glitches, and I'll try have a nice little module by Monday.
P.S. I've successfully converted a clone-based recursive project! 
Hardmaths-MacBook-Pro:~ Hardmath$ sudo make $(whoami) a sandwich
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#6808 2013-02-08 12:22:33
Re: BYOB 3 - Discussion Thread
xly wrote:
Sorry Brian , but I've never written a line of Java or JS in my life. As I've underlined it, I'm just a layman.
I'm referring to Processing, a language based upon Java, largely used by Visual designers and artists. See : http://www.openprocessing.org/browse/
Okay, your mind has been poisoned by a language based upon Java. 
(EDIT: I know, I'm being annoying, but as I've said before, it's not through any personal merit of mine that I've been illuminated on this issue; I just had the good luck to hang out with Henry Lieberman in my youth.)
Last edited by bharvey (2013-02-08 12:31:07)
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#6809 2013-02-08 12:26:11
Re: BYOB 3 - Discussion Thread
Hardmath123 wrote:
P.S. I've successfully converted a clone-based recursive project!
Neat!
It's both exciting and frustrating to be out here at the tail of the 90/10 rule! We've been almost-ready for months now... But soon we'll be taking over the world.
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#6810 2013-02-08 20:46:27
- Hardmath123
- Scratcher
- Registered: 2010-02-19
- Posts: 1000+
Re: BYOB 3 - Discussion Thread
Code:
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From http://beta.scratch.mit.edu/projects/10040547/#editor
EDIT: You need to change _mouse_ to mouse-pointer manually… I'll fix that today.
Last edited by Hardmath123 (2013-02-08 20:47:46)
Hardmaths-MacBook-Pro:~ Hardmath$ sudo make $(whoami) a sandwich
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#6811 2013-02-08 23:02:42
Re: BYOB 3 - Discussion Thread
mostly @Hardmath:
A mathematician is at a party at which there are five married couples (one of which includes the mathematician). The mathematician notices that people are shaking hands when they meet, but nobody shakes his/her own hand, and nobody shakes his/her spouse's hand.
The mathematician asks every other person "with how many people did you shake hands" and gets a different answer from each person.
With how many people did the mathematician's spouse shake hands?
(Yes, there is a unique solution.)
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#6812 2013-02-09 04:36:55
- joefarebrother
- Scratcher
- Registered: 2011-04-08
- Posts: 1000+
Re: BYOB 3 - Discussion Thread
bharvey wrote:
mostly @Hardmath:
A mathematician is at a party at which there are five married couples (one of which includes the mathematician). The mathematician notices that people are shaking hands when they meet, but nobody shakes his/her own hand, and nobody shakes his/her spouse's hand.
The mathematician asks every other person "with how many people did you shake hands" and gets a different answer from each person.
With how many people did the mathematician's spouse shake hands?
(Yes, there is a unique solution.)
8???
My latest project is called
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#6813 2013-02-09 06:12:45
Re: BYOB 3 - Discussion Thread
bharvey wrote:
A mathematician is at a party...
Does the question imply that the mathematician doesn't shake hands with anyone?
joefarebrother wrote:
8???
I thought that at first, too: but reading the question again, I think it's harder than that.
Things I've made: kurt | scratchblocks2 | this cake
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#6814 2013-02-09 08:21:34
- Hardmath123
- Scratcher
- Registered: 2010-02-19
- Posts: 1000+
Re: BYOB 3 - Discussion Thread
bharvey wrote:
mostly @Hardmath:
A mathematician is at a party at which there are five married couples (one of which includes the mathematician). The mathematician notices that people are shaking hands when they meet, but nobody shakes his/her own hand, and nobody shakes his/her spouse's hand.
The mathematician asks every other person "with how many people did you shake hands" and gets a different answer from each person.
With how many people did the mathematician's spouse shake hands?
(Yes, there is a unique solution.)
Every other person implies everyone except for the mathematician, or half of the people (the Bulls won every other match they played)?
Anyway, I'm kind of burnt out right now (there was a science quiz which soaked up 8 hours today—I won a $25 coupon for a bookstore, and a Texas Instruments scientific calculator ). AND I have piano class in less than 2 hours. I'll think about it later.
Hardmaths-MacBook-Pro:~ Hardmath$ sudo make $(whoami) a sandwich
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#6815 2013-02-09 09:11:20
- Hardmath123
- Scratcher
- Registered: 2010-02-19
- Posts: 1000+
Re: BYOB 3 - Discussion Thread
4.
Hardmaths-MacBook-Pro:~ Hardmath$ sudo make $(whoami) a sandwich
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#6816 2013-02-09 11:52:34
- shadow_7283
- Scratcher
- Registered: 2007-11-07
- Posts: 1000+
Re: BYOB 3 - Discussion Thread
Hardmath123 wrote:
science quiz which soaked up 8 hours today
That's some quiz!
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#6817 2013-02-09 12:04:28
Re: BYOB 3 - Discussion Thread
Hardmath123 wrote:
4.
We really need [spoiler] tags.
Things I've made: kurt | scratchblocks2 | this cake
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#6818 2013-02-09 13:10:08
#6819 2013-02-09 13:11:53
Re: BYOB 3 - Discussion Thread
blob8108 wrote:
Does the question imply that the mathematician doesn't shake hands with anyone?
The question does not state anything about the mathematician's behavior. Once you have a solution, you'll see that the question implies quite a lot about everyone's behavior!
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#6820 2013-02-09 13:15:02
Re: BYOB 3 - Discussion Thread
Hardmath123 wrote:
Every other person implies everyone except for the mathematician, or half of the people (the Bulls won every other match they played)?
Everyone except the mathematician.
Anyway, I'm kind of burnt out right now (there was a science quiz which soaked up 8 hours today—I won a $25 coupon for a bookstore, and a Texas Instruments scientific calculator
Good job!
I LOLed at the half-hour gap between this and your followup message.
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#6821 2013-02-09 13:16:08
Re: BYOB 3 - Discussion Thread
blob8108 wrote:
Hardmath123 wrote:
4.
We really need [spoiler] tags.
He could be wrong, you know... It's not a spoiler until someone (such as blob or jfb ) posts an explanation.
Last edited by bharvey (2013-02-09 19:34:20)
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#6822 2013-02-10 02:02:54
- Hardmath123
- Scratcher
- Registered: 2010-02-19
- Posts: 1000+
Re: BYOB 3 - Discussion Thread
bharvey wrote:
Hardmath123 wrote:
Every other person implies everyone except for the mathematician, or half of the people (the Bulls won every other match they played)?
Everyone except the mathematician.
Anyway, I'm kind of burnt out right now (there was a science quiz which soaked up 8 hours today—I won a $25 coupon for a bookstore, and a Texas Instruments scientific calculator
Good job! It was fun—we made it to the state finals. It was kind of like 6-team Jeopardy in teams of two.
Thanks!
I LOLed at the half-hour gap between this and your followup message.
It's hard to sleep with a math problem on your mind, isn't it?
Anyway, here's the proof/solution (spoiler alert!):
Let the guests be Alan and Alice, Bill and Beatrix, Carl and Cindy, Daniel and Della, and Ethan and Emma. Also, let Alan be the mathematician. Note that the rest of this proof is symmetric over the remaining couples, so naming is not really required.
Since there are 9 guests besides Alan, and only 9 numbers of ways a guest can shake hands with anyone (0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8—not 9 because the 9th person is his/her spouse), each number is assigned to exactly one unique guest (besides the mathematician).
Now we focus on the guest who shook 8 hands. We notice there was also a social outcast who shook no hands. The guest who shook eight hands shook with everyone except himself and his/her spouse. Since none of these eight people could have shaken zero hands, we conclude that the guest who shook zero hands was married to the guest who shook 8 hands.
We now proceed to prove that Alice (the mathematician's wife) could not have shaken eight or zero hands. If she had shaken zero hands, then the guest who shook eight hands would obviously not be her spouse. Similarly, if she had shaken eight hands, the guest who shook no hands wouldn't be her spouse. As shown above, neither of these cases is possible, so Alice shook neither eight nor zero hands.
Without loss of generality, let Ethan have shaken eight hands and Emma have shaken no hands. Each of the remaining guests, even the mathematician, must have shaken at least one hand. There must be a guest who shook only one hand, and one who shook seven hands. Using identically reasoning as above, we can show that these guests must be married, and neither is the mathematician's wife. Thus, Alice didn't shake one or seven hands, either, and Daniel and Della shook one and seven hands each.
This reasoning can be applied to the remaining guests again, ruling out the possibilities two and six (which correspond with Carl and Cindy), and then yet again to rule out three and five (Bill and Beatrix). That leaves out four hands as the only possibility for the mathematician's wife.
Hardmaths-MacBook-Pro:~ Hardmath$ sudo make $(whoami) a sandwich
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#6823 2013-02-10 12:15:04
Re: BYOB 3 - Discussion Thread
Hardmath123 wrote:
Let the guests be Alan and Alice, Bill and Beatrix, Carl and Cindy, Daniel and Della, and Ethan and Emma. Also, let Alan be the mathematician.
Aww, I was trying so hard to avoid suggesting that the mathematician has to be male!
And I guess you must live in one of the states that hasn't gotten around to legalizing gay marriage yet.
We now proceed to prove that Alice (the mathematician's wife) could not have shaken eight or zero hands. If she had shaken zero hands, then the guest who shook eight hands would obviously not be her spouse. Similarly, if she had shaken eight hands, the guest who shook no hands wouldn't be her spouse. As shown above, neither of these cases is possible, so Alice shook neither eight nor zero hands.
I don't think you have to go through all that work. The mathematician's spouse is one of the nine people who gave distinct answers. So once you pair off 0-8, 1-7, etc., then you just say "whoever's left (namely 4) must be married to the mathematician."
This is one of my favorite puzzles, because at first glance it seems like there can't possibly be enough information in it, but by the end of the argument you know exactly who shook hands with whom, including btw the mathematician, who (like his/her spouse) shook hands with 8, 7, 6, and 5.
It's hard to sleep with a math problem on your mind, isn't it?
Wait, you weren't supposed to be sleeping; you were supposed to be prepping for a piano lesson!
PS The UCB implementation of Lisp for Unix, years ago, was called Franz Lisp.
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#6824 2013-02-10 12:25:15
- technoboy10
- Scratcher
- Registered: 2007-08-25
- Posts: 1000+
Re: BYOB 3 - Discussion Thread
bharvey wrote:
PS The UCB implementation of Lisp for Unix, years ago, was called Franz Lisp.
Epic. Win.
So long, 1.4.
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#6825 2013-02-10 13:51:37
Re: BYOB 3 - Discussion Thread
So I spent all afternoon playing with that puzzle, and finally reached a solution! I made a little Scratch project while I was figuring it out. It's not nearly as rigorous as Hardmath's proof*, but it's visual and fun to play with — see here.
(* but given that you said there's a unique solution, having found a solution, I can cheat and assume it's the only one. )
Things I've made: kurt | scratchblocks2 | this cake
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