Scratch

Lets change that from 25% to 75% 

I have never shared art on Scratch.

I'll just state something here.

The Scratch Website should be based on what Scratch really is - programming. Therefore, we should post projects that are programming, right? Animations are all right; they require programming, and a lot of projects of a different genre (ie. games, simulations) have small animations. Animations are all right. But art... art is different. Either this happens:

1. They draw something in the Scratch paint editor, and share it. What? Where's the programming?
2. They draw something in a different program, then import it into Scratch and share it. This is even more ridiculous. The only use for Scratch there is for sharing! They just draw something in a different program, and then import it into Scratch! What?

I say that people should share art on a website designed for that purpose. Not on a programming website.

Last edited by Jonathanpb (2009-11-28 00:39:05)

cheddargirl wrote:

(usually having a restriction of 13+ years of age or older to join)

You're right... I feel silly now. 

Jonathanpb wrote:

Art doesn't really fit in Scratch...

I fail to agree. I believe the Scratch website is open to any kind of media, does this not include art as well?

andresmh wrote:

My opinion is that the Scratch community should welcome any kind of media. I've seen artists becoming programmers and vice versa. I think diversity makes a richer creative environment. Some of my favorite Scratch projects involve original art, music, story and programming.

(Source of andresmh's quote)

Jonathanpb wrote:

cheddargirl wrote:

Instead of complaining about the art on Scratch, why not go to these art projects and make friendly suggestions that encourages implement programming concepts to it? For example, if someone draws a still picture of a butterfly in the Scratch paint editor, you can suggest something like using movement blocks to have the butterfly flutter around the stage or using the look blocks so the butterfly can change color. I feel that art is a sign of creativity - rather than scorn and condone it, let's see if we can get the artists to use Scratch as an art medium beyond the paint editor. 

Yes, art can be 'upgraded' to fit into Scratch. Adding some programming already does it, but combining art to make animations works too - and it looks nice.
It'd be great if art could be made to fit into Scratch (after all, we wouldn't have these problems) - but sadly, it requires programming to fit in. 

Does a still image really need to have some association with programming to be part of Scratch? Part of the concept of Scratch includes the ability to share creations with one another. Even if the image is still and unmoving, it has a great potential to be turned to something greater. Among its uses as a creativity platform: The image can be remixed into another project idea; Scratchers can use images to share concepts (ie. character bios) which are otherwise harder to express with words; images can be used as part of a bigger collaboration project. Insofar that a user wants to share the art with other Scratchers for the purpose of letting it be shared, I see nothing wrong with uploading it to the Scratch website.

Maybe my previous post is coming across as close minded to having Scratch being only open to programming and nothing else. To clarify: the suggestion I provided above is for those who seem to be stuck with using the Scratch paint editor as the only possible use for Scratch as an art medium - but other than that, I see nothing wrong with sharing art projects on the website if the intention is to have other build upon it or to share/collaborate concepts with others.

Jonathanpb wrote:

What does annoy me though is knowing that plenty of Scratchers upload their art on Scratch, instead of using an art website for it. Sure, younger Scratchers may not be able to use a different website that has their age range, but we can't deny that there are plenty of older Scratchers that upload art on Scratch. And... some of them even have an account on an art website! What? It's as if people upload art on other websites, but also upload their art on Scratch.

Uploading to both websites opens the art up to a wider audience. I see nothing wrong with uploading to both websites if the intent of uploading to the Scratch website is to share the artwork with other Scratchers as a creativity starting platform.

I feel very sad when I see Scratchers who are quick to condone art on the Scratch website as a bad thing without seeing the good that can come of it. While I do agree with others that it would be nice to see some projects that are more program-oriented projects on the website, I feel that putting a restriction on art on the Scratch website would be like putting a restriction on creativity; keeping in mind that part of the concept and purposes of Scratch is creativity itself, I believe that it would be wrong for me to say art shouldn't be allowed on the website.

Lucario621 wrote:

cheddargirl wrote:

Jonathanpb wrote:

I say that people should share art on a website designed for that purpose. Not on a programming website.

While I certainly think that an art sharing website would be a better online platform for sharing still image art, the sad part is that most art sharing websites are designed for an older target audience (usually having a restriction of 13+ years of age or older to join) - there is a significant number of Scratchers who are younger than this age category and, to my knowledge, there isn't any such art community for them to join. So until there is such an online friendly community, Scratch is the only option for them.

This is what I exactly HATE. They're TAKING ADVANTAGE of this website community. If they can't find any websites for young children to share their art, well, thats their loss, but they shouldn't be running back to us. I'm not trying to be mean, but, I want to keep the goal of scratch, the same.

cheddargirl wrote:

I feel very sad when I see Scratchers who are quick to condone art on the Scratch website as a bad thing without seeing the good that can come of it.

For me, those are the brilliant situations, where these scratchers, come back to reality, and are humble.

Also not to be mean to you cheddargirl, but you haven't been here from the beginning, so you wouldn't understand...

First of all, why do you think there's a option to add the tag 'Art' right from the Scratch software?
And did you read Andrés quote?

I don't think having been on Scratch since 2007 changes anything.

Think like this:
There is always someone willing to program for a lower cost, but creativity, creativity is impossible to 'learn', you can only practice and therefor it should be developed in an early age.
Scratch offer the opportunity to both learn to program and to be creative.

I'm not saying that Scratch is preparing us for working.
It's helping us to think more creative.

Last edited by jacool (2009-11-28 10:10:42)

Also let me mention another quick thing.

If you look at the community stats, theres approx. 4.75M sprites, and 14.75M scripts. Thats kind of a small ratio, if you ask me. That means for each sprite, theres an average of 3 scripts.

Thats the average amount of scripts some art and animation projects have. Coincidence? Or isn't it?

Lucario621 wrote:

Also not to be mean to you cheddargirl, but you haven't been here from the beginning, so you wouldn't understand...

Lucario621 wrote:

About 07ers, we actually know what scratch really used to be like, and what was the standard. Its like it used to be an average home, but you guys turned it into a shack. We;re not asking for a mansion, only a regular home.

Lucario, stop it. We all know that you're trying to look older than everyone else. And also, please stop blaming '09ers for everything bad in Scratch! It's barbaric! How would you like it if you were a newbie, anyway?
Actually, there's a good reason why people blame '09ers: Because Scratch started to change at the beginning of '09. So it's natural to think that it was the '09ers that changed Scratch. Please don't. It was people from all years.

Last edited by Jonathanpb (2009-11-29 00:54:14)

Yes. I have made aproject where you can MAKE art--It's programming, and art.
___________________________________________
Some animations can be done with ONE simple script:

<when green flag clicked>

<forever>
<next costume>


If you made all the stage and characters into costumes, then YES.
______________________________________________________________________

<end>

The thing I have against the majority of users favouring art is that scratch is a good way of acquiring a first programming language and by just doing art you don't learn how to program. Those who don't bother with anything other than move blocks for the purpose of making art programs don't learn how to program. I think that art is favoured because it is easier to understand but there should be more support for people who want to learn how to program with scratch. Something like a wiki would be good.

Last edited by archmage (2009-11-29 12:11:24)

[

Lucario621 wrote:

This is what I exactly HATE. They're TAKING ADVANTAGE of this website community. If they can't find any websites for young children to share their art, well, thats their loss, but they shouldn't be running back to us. I'm not trying to be mean, but, I want to keep the goal of scratch, the same.

Okay, understandable. The goal of Scratch is to expand creativity, so, for them, the course of action is to encourage them to start being more active in using the Scratch blocks, instead of complaining that they take advantage of the art website (because complaining goes nowhere and only makes the community seem more angry). For you (and others that hold the same position), I'll give this challenge: go to at least ten on these young users a week and add friendly suggestions that will encourage them to add Scratch blocks to their program.

Lucario621 wrote:

About 07ers, we actually know what scratch really used to be like, and what was the standard. Its like it used to be an average home, but you guys turned it into a shack. We;re not asking for a mansion, only a regular home.

This sounds like a very closed-minded thinking (in fact, it sound like you want to kick me and the newer users out). You have to understand that the thoughts and opinions of society changes over time, nothing stays the same. And Scratch, being that its goal is set in creativity, is open to all media, is open to everyone: artists, animators, game designers, storytellers. To say that the past is the standard, then, is to say this website is closed to everyone who doesn't think in the past standard, which is a limitation on the idea of creativity, one of the concepts that Scratch was designed upon. 

Jonathanpb wrote:

Second: yes, a still image can become something greater (as stated before, they can become animations). And there's nothing wrong with art... but why can't they use an art website for their sharing, if they're just uploading their art? I'm not talking about still images, I'm talking about the type of thing you'll upload on to an art sharing website. I don't know how to put it in words, so it'll sound completely stupid. I hope you'll know what I mean.

I think I have an idea of what you mean, but for clarification's sake, let's start off with some basic ground information (perhaps I am muddling up my previous argument with a bad choice of words), so it is easier for other readers to understand this debate fully:

1) The term "sharing" means exposing art to the point where it is allowed to used in some way. In the case of Scratch, this can extend from taking the image and using it in a project, to explaining an idea to suggest a concept (ie. character bios). There are obviously many other uses for the art when uploaded to the Scratch website, these are not the only two.
2) The term "showing" means exposing the art to the point where a user wants others to view his/her art, but not let them use it in any way, shape or form. This "showing" concept is restrictive - while others can see the art, they cannot use the art in a project, or [even more restrictive] not using the concept, ideas, or characters in the art in any other projects (fan projects).
3) When I was referring to "still-image" I was referring to the still art that is generally acceptable as an art website submission. This is where the crux of the argument lies, the debate being: if the image is acceptable for an art website, then why upload it to Scratch in the first place?
4) You said before that you haven't really been to art websites, so I have a feeling that you have a misconception (and probably many others) about how they are supposed to work and function: It is important to note here that most art websites are designed not for sharing, but just for showing only. Typically, when one uploads something to an art website, it is usually done so with the intent that the art work will not be used in any way by anyone else.

Now back to my position: My support for the art on Scratch lies in the reason for the images being uploaded to Scratch.  When a user uploads his/her artwork on Scratch, it is usually with the intent that the art is utilized in some way to be shared with the Scratch community. If the intent was to share with the Scratch community, it make sense to upload it on the Scratch website. If the intent was to show and share the art, it makes sense that the user uploads it to both the Scratch website and the art website. If a user wants to show off his/her art, but not share it, then, yes, it makes sense to upload the art to an art website rather than Scratch.

Jonathanpb wrote:

Third: Sure, uploading on two websites allows a wider audience. Actually, I think that's the main reason why they upload on Scratch.

I don't believe that is the main reason why most upload art to Scratch. I have seen very few examples where art was uploaded to the Scratch website with its full intention for showing only - most I see is with the intent that it can be shared. (I am assuming your argument is redirected at those who upload to the Scratch website with the intent of showing the art and not sharing it. For the sake of this argument, I am excluding the younger members who cannot yet upload to art websites because of their age and because you have stated previously that your position is directed at those who hold both Scratch website accounts and art website accounts). In fact, I'll challenge you to find at least 100 users that do this (all of them old enough to be able to upload to art websites, since this argument is in respect to them).

One may argue that someone could upload it to the art website and then re-direct Scratch users to the art website to download the images it if they want to use it. In general, this is not the purpose of an art website, and this is generally unacceptable in an art website.

Ugh, I'm done with this topic. I think it's best if I leave.

I made a RPG, but it's has NOT TO MANY VIEWS! I am not a newbie, for those who think that.
___________________________________

Right now i am making a game called D U N G E O N. At the same time i have been making an illusions project.
___________________________________

So....

I might make a new forum about the ILLUSIONS on scratch. they have been over-predictingly FAMOUS>

  I am NiteHaunt, and i a pprove this message.

Yes, I'm done too. Now for ice cream!