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#1 2007-12-03 19:06:23

johnadmin
Scratch Team
Registered: 2007-03-13
Posts: 100+

Scratch 1.2.1

Greetings, all.

We've discovered a few glitches in Scratch 1.2, so we are planning to put out a new release (Scratch 1.2.1) later this week. The glitches include:

  - a hidden sprite can block mouse clicks on other sprites in presentation mode
  - the tempo monitor should show that it is global (for all sprites)
  - a bug in the change tempo block (the set tempo block works okay)
  - a bug in the get attribute block applied to the stage
  - the Windows ununinstaller should not delete the entire Scratch folder if it contains user projects

Note to Windows users: The recommended way to upgrade Scratch is to run the installer. This will upgrade your Scratch folder without deleting any projects that you might have stored there. Do NOT run the uninstaller if you have projects in your Scratch folder; that will delete the entire Scratch folder including your projects.

We will try to fix any other problems that emerge in the next day or so. We will monitor this thread and the Scratch 1.2 release annoucement thread for bug reports.

Thank you!

  -- John

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#2 2007-12-03 19:44:31

relyt12101
Scratcher
Registered: 2007-05-19
Posts: 500+

Re: Scratch 1.2.1

I posted this on the Scratch 1.2 forum but thought I should post it here since it was not on your list above -

relyt12101 wrote:

Found a bug!

I know this can't be fixed since 1.2 is out but...

When you mouse-over the X to delete a sound, it says, 'Delete this costume.' It's a sound you are deleting, not a costume.


http://img392.imageshack.us/img392/2860/pspbanneregg089deiy0.png

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#3 2007-12-03 20:24:46

kevin_karplus
Scratcher
Registered: 2007-04-27
Posts: 1000+

Re: Scratch 1.2.1

Volume is set using a linear amplitude scale instead of a more perceptually uniform scale, such as the decibel scale used by audio engineers.  This makes "change volume by 10" pretty meaningless.

If you used   amplitude = 10 ** (volume/20.) then you would have volume in decibels, and change volume by 10 would have roughly the same perceptual effect at any initial volume.

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#4 2007-12-03 22:00:46

evhan55
Scratcher
Registered: 2007-03-07
Posts: 100+

Re: Scratch 1.2.1

relyt12101 wrote:

I posted this on the Scratch 1.2 forum but thought I should post it here since it was not on your list above -

relyt12101 wrote:

Found a bug!

I know this can't be fixed since 1.2 is out but...

When you mouse-over the X to delete a sound, it says, 'Delete this costume.' It's a sound you are deleting, not a costume.

Thank you!  We will address this in 1.2.1 if we can.
Evelyn


I love Scratch!  big_smile
my creative outlet

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#5 2007-12-04 01:37:04

Jens
Scratcher
Registered: 2007-06-04
Posts: 1000+

Re: Scratch 1.2.1

I've got 3 issues with the new midi commands:

1) waits do not support bpm

I'm missing a way to code a tempo-consistent musical 'rest', because the 'wait' block does currently not support the newly introduced 'bpm' interval (see http://scratch.mit.edu/projects/Jens/62023).

As a result you need to introduce a variable ('beatlength') for each 'wait' block and set it to '60 / tempo' *each* time you code a musical rest. This is extremely awkward and error-prone and takes away all the benefits introduced with the new tempo-system.

2) note volumes are not set while the note is playing

Also, Scratch will not change a note's volume while that note is being played, but nonetheless display the new volume in the watcher onstage. This makes it impossible to fade out / fade in slow melodies.

3) setting an instrument

There seems to be a different priority for setting an instrument than in version 1.1, especially if you use different instrument in different threads within the same sprite.


Jens Mönig

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#6 2007-12-04 06:58:04

Llamalover
Scratcher
Registered: 2007-05-18
Posts: 100+

Re: Scratch 1.2.1

It's great that you mentioned about the uninstaller, sice, it was MY user projects that were deleted! All of them!  sad  By the way;

johnadmin wrote:

ununinstaller

Last edited by Llamalover (2007-12-04 06:59:16)


Be nice, I'm an old lady  wink

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#7 2007-12-04 08:21:28

johnm
Scratcher
Registered: 2007-03-08
Posts: 100+

Re: Scratch 1.2.1

Hi, Llamalover.

I'm very sorry that your projects got deleted!  sad

But thank you for letting us know right away so that we could warn other people not to use the uninstaller. Your quick response probably saved many others from losing projects. (There was a bad bug in the uninstaller--it is not supposed to delete the Scratch folder if there are still some projects in it after uninstalling the ones that came with Scratch, but it did.)

Note that you can get back any projects that you had shared on the Scratch website by downloading them. (I see that you have a lot of projects on the website, so I hope that you had uploaded most of the projects you created.)

  -- John

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#8 2007-12-04 12:27:08

Llamalover
Scratcher
Registered: 2007-05-18
Posts: 100+

Re: Scratch 1.2.1

Thanks, but I only uploaded those that I thought completely finished, and I have loads of others that weren't ready. Thanks again for your help!


Be nice, I'm an old lady  wink

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#9 2007-12-04 12:40:42

kevin_karplus
Scratcher
Registered: 2007-04-27
Posts: 1000+

Re: Scratch 1.2.1

The wait can be done with
    wait 60/<tempo> seconds 
to wait one beat.

It might be nice to have a block that said
    wait  <> beats
for use in music and dance programs, but I wouldn't want to lose
   wait <> seconds.

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#10 2007-12-04 15:31:56

Gigabyte123
Scratcher
Registered: 2007-10-15
Posts: 100

Re: Scratch 1.2.1

about the change tempo, you can do 'set tempo to tempo plus (whatever nember you want)!'


gather your confidence- reach for the skies... and always use deoderant!

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#11 2007-12-05 03:04:30

Jens
Scratcher
Registered: 2007-06-04
Posts: 1000+

Re: Scratch 1.2.1

kevin_karplus wrote:

The wait can be done with
    wait 60/<tempo> seconds
to wait one beat.

You're right, Kevin, since tempo is now global there's no need for a variable. I oversaw that.

I wouldn't want to miss the 'wait _ secs' block either. In fact, I'm not a big fan of the whole tempo feature, since it can be implemented using regular variables, thereby learning about what tempo actually is...

To take it even further, I'd like to be able to not just use regular notes on a modern tempered 12-tone scale, but other frequencies as well. There are many cultures using other musical intervals and scales, which are completely different from our classical European style music, and I find that limitation to 'western' music somewhat culturally biased, if not disturbing.  Also, why disable musical ornaments like a 'glisando' in Scratch?


Jens Mönig

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#12 2007-12-05 09:19:39

kevin_karplus
Scratcher
Registered: 2007-04-27
Posts: 1000+

Re: Scratch 1.2.1

I like having the tempo variable, though it is not strictly necessary, as it helps kids understand the "tempo" notation on sheet music, and gets them thinking in terms of beats rather than absolute duration for music and dance. 

If the goal was simply to teach programming, then the "tempo" global might not be desirable, but if the intent is to connect their programming to other parts of their curriculum (like music and dance), then having the notion of beats makes transfer of learning easier.  I think we are likely to see better music and dance projects in v1.2, now that tempo is more easily varied.

As for the 12-tone restriction,  I think that comes from the MIDI interface, which originally was designed for electronic keyboard instruments.  The first version of MIDI did not provide a way to specify frequencies, only key numbers.  I'm not sure whether the more recent versions provide full frequency specification or not, but the key-number interface is still the simplest thing to do, and provides a much easier beginner's interface than having to specify all the frequencies for each note.

If you want full power for music synthesis, you might want to look into the Synthesis Toolkit (http://ccrma.stanford.edu/software/stk/)  I've not used it myself, but it seems to be in the same tradition as the old c music synthesis software.

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#13 2007-12-05 12:33:20

johnm
Scratcher
Registered: 2007-03-08
Posts: 100+

Re: Scratch 1.2.1

Hi, Jens.

Thanks for pointing out the problem that "wait" does not scaling with tempo. We've decided to add a "rest for __ beats" block that does scale with tempo.

We use a simple noteon/notoff interface to the built-in MIDI synthesizers provided by Windows, Mac OS, and Java. Although the MIDI standard does allow for "pitch bend" (for pitches outside the equally tempered scale) and "after-touch" (to change the volume of a note in progress) we are not using those features and I'm not sure they are supported on all platforms (e.g. by the Java synthesizer).

But regardless of these implementation details, we're willing to sacrifice some flexibility and fine-grained control to keep things simple. The current note/drum blocks are a reasonable compromise.

By the way, the volume command can change the volume of recorded sounds played with "play sound" as they are playing.

Thanks for your comments!

  -- John

Last edited by johnm (2007-12-05 23:21:55)

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#14 2007-12-05 14:53:59

Paddle2See
Scratch Team
Registered: 2007-10-27
Posts: 1000+

Re: Scratch 1.2.1

Zombie Cats sighted in 1.2!

Okay, I'm not sure it's a bug, but it is kind of strange.  Maybe it's been there all along and I just never noticed it.  But try this:

1. Open Scratch with no project
2. Take the scissors and delete the cat sprite (the only sprite in the project).  The cat
    will disappear from the stage, as it should.
3. Click on the paintbrush to make a new sprite.  The cat REAPPEARS on the stage! You may have to slide the paint editor over to see it but it is there. I killed it yet it lives!  If you then exit the painte editor, the cat is gone.  Freaky.


http://i39.tinypic.com/2nav6o7.gif

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#15 2007-12-05 23:12:41

johnm
Scratcher
Registered: 2007-03-08
Posts: 100+

Re: Scratch 1.2.1

Hi, Paddle2See.

That behavior has always been there. The paint editor works by editing the costume of some sprite. When you click on the paintbrush button, it makes a sprite with the defautl cat costume and then immediately puts you in the paint editor. When you finish painting, the new costume that you painted replaces the default cat costume. Or if you cancel from painting, the sprite that was created is deleted.

  -- John

Last edited by johnm (2007-12-05 23:22:44)

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#16 2007-12-06 02:12:04

Jens
Scratcher
Registered: 2007-06-04
Posts: 1000+

Re: Scratch 1.2.1

Hi John,

thank you so much for adding a tempo-consistent rest block. It will make coding music projects so much easier and fun, and I'm definitely looking forward to seeing more 'real' musical projects done in Scratch!

Upon Kevin's remarks about the technical restrictions of the MIDI interface I looked into (your very own?) MIDI code in Squeak, and had some fun with the pitch-bend primitive, tricking Squeak into playing 'wrong' notes, and finding out that you can indeed play any frequency you want using MIDI. But then Kevin's further observation really convinced me, that the tempered 12-tone restriction makes it way easier to start creating musical projects. So, please just forget about that proposal to allow any frequencies. While some games might benefit from it, it would definitely make music notation needlessly complicated.

Also, thanks for pointing out that the volume control blocks will change the volume of recorded sounds while they are playing (but not midi notes). I agree that this is probably all that is really needed without complicating things too much.


Jens Mönig

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#17 2007-12-06 08:01:11

johnm
Scratcher
Registered: 2007-03-08
Posts: 100+

Re: Scratch 1.2.1

Hi, Jens.

Interesting that pitch-bend does work with the underlying MIDI synth. What platform did you experiment on? I know I've encountered incomplete MIDI synth implementations in the past, but that may have been on mobile devices.

I'm glad you are happy about the new rest block and volume control.

Scratch on!

  -- John

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#18 2007-12-06 08:08:29

Jens
Scratcher
Registered: 2007-06-04
Posts: 1000+

Re: Scratch 1.2.1

Hi John,
I played around with the pitch-bend primitive in a Squeak 3.9 image on a win32 3.9 vm running under XP SP1 and it worked just fine (the method comment somewhere indicated 'jm' as author, so I guessed that might have been you).


Jens Mönig

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#19 2007-12-07 13:10:30

johnadmin
Scratch Team
Registered: 2007-03-13
Posts: 100+

Re: Scratch 1.2.1

Scratch 1.2.1 is now available. See:

  http://scratch.mit.edu/forums/viewtopic.php?id=2439

  --John

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