Scratch

Confusing has 3 syllables 

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Big-bangs point boils down to this. 

Historically speaking, every time science has contradicted religion, the science has eventually won out and become accepted.  Every time.  That's quite an impressive trend.  Nobody is still supporting the idea that the sun revolves around the earth, or that insanity is caused by demonic posession.

I'll repeat that for emphasis.  Every time science has contradicted religion, the science has eventually won out and become accepted

So, whilst there are no certainties, it seems extremely likely that in time, science will win out over religion in the current disagreements such as evolution and the big bang.

This of course does not disprove the existence of a god, but does reduce the need for one.  Gods have always been "gods of the gaps" - used to fill in the gaps in our understanding of the world around us, and those gaps get smaller and smaller with every discovery.

shadow_7283 wrote:

Again I disagree with you. If you take a look at your example (early civilizations believing that the earth was the center of the solar system) you will find that religions had little to no affect on the theory, especially not Christianity. It was mainly astronomers creating a new idea.

Psalm 93:1, Psalm 96:10, and 1 Chronicles 16:30 include (depending on translation) text stating that "the world is firmly established, it cannot be moved."

Psalm 104:5 says, "the LORD set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved."

Ecclesiastes 1:5 states that "And the sun rises and sets and returns to its place"

Copernicus disagreed, and when Galileo wrote a book presenting the "stationary earth" vs "earth moves around the sun" he was ordered imprisoned for his heretical views, his books were banned, and he spent the rest of his life under house arrest.

But guess what?  He was right, the church was wrong.

shadow_7283 wrote:

No historian can deny that Jesus lived, and witnesses are everywhere, telling you the miraculous signs that Jesus did.

Not entirely correct, as there are no actual witnesses.  There are written records transcribed from oral histories long after the events, but there are also written records of the activities of Hercules, son of Zeus, and I will wager you do not give them any credence.

shadow_7283 wrote:

If you take a look in the bible you will see countless examples of witnesses and stories, that could not have possibly been made up as a joke, like some people wish to believe.

Made up as a joke?  No.  Exaggerated and elaborated upon long after the event to make him seem even more impressive than he was?  Almost certainly.

shadow_7283 wrote:

Also take a look at the prophecies, like Uncanny was telling us about in the first place. Many of the prophecies have already come true. Is a 100 percent accuracy enough?

Feel free to give me some examples of these 100% accurate unambigious prophesies.  However, you only get to take them from the *new* testament, since the ones in the old testament are rightly the property of Judaism, and the last thing you want to do is prove that the Jews are right.

shadow_7283 wrote:

This is one it comes down to me. God is omniscient, all-powerful, and knows what he is doing. The bible is a witness of the great things he has done.

The bible is a book written by people, a book that has been edited, modified, redacted and re-written many times to support whichever political views the church held at the time.  This is the historical truth.  Different branches of Christianity cannot even agree on what should be included in the bible - cf the deuterocanonical books.

One of the worst things a Christian can do, according to Saint Augustine, is to argue in favour of the Bible's view of something that science has proven otherwise.  By doing so, you merely prove to the educated that you do not know what you are talking about - and if you appear willing to spout proven nonsense about the *physical* world, the educated will have every reason to believe that what you spout about the *spiritual* world is equally nonsensical.

I think that this thread should be locked since it seems to have turned into a religious argument which will never progress.

A person who is truly faithful to their religion will not question their religion no matter how unbelievable it may be. Religion has been around since ancient times as a substitute for science to explain things that could not be proved otherwise. Now don't get me wrong, I think that the bible is a great book, full of symbolism and metaphors and such, but you you take every word of the bible literally then you are brainwashed IMO.

Lanie wrote:

Ok This is not a right or wrong dispute. Some people believe God created the world and others believe the Science is how the world was created. Neither of you are wrong you believe in what you want. If arguing continues this will be closed

Why do you want people to refrain from debating about religion?

Lanie wrote:

There is no need to get in an argument about something that neither can prove. Some people might also feel uncomfortable about God creating the world vise versa others might feel uncomfortable that people believe in science creating the world. No need for arguing

In my opinion:

No one is forced to participate in these threads. To me, all current participants are capable, mature, and strong-willed and are more than comfortable discussing/reading this kind of thing. Others are not obliged to read or say anything here. Also, it is a good experience as people can learn how to spread the truth more efficiently and will be able to understand their religion better if they can try to teach it. In my opinion, this thread is no problem as all arguments are calm and respectful with solid evidence.

Mayhem wrote:

shadow_7283 wrote:

Also take a look at the prophecies, like Uncanny was telling us about in the first place. Many of the prophecies have already come true. Is a 100 percent accuracy enough?

Feel free to give me some examples of these 100% accurate unambigious prophesies.  However, you only get to take them from the *new* testament, since the ones in the old testament are rightly the property of Judaism, and the last thing you want to do is prove that the Jews are right.

2 Peter 2 and Matthew 24 talk about false prophets which is more than clear now. Revelation and Matthew 24 hold multiple more prophesies that will/are be(ing) fulfilled.

Mayhem wrote:

shadow_7283 wrote:

This is one it comes down to me. God is omniscient, all-powerful, and knows what he is doing. The bible is a witness of the great things he has done.

The bible is a book written by people, a book that has been edited, modified, redacted and re-written many times to support whichever political views the church held at the time.  This is the historical truth.  Different branches of Christianity cannot even agree on what should be included in the bible - cf the deuterocanonical books.

At the beginning, the Bible was God-breathed and inerrant. It has been copied by people over and over again. However, it has been preserved greatly as different manuscripts are all exactly identical. Anything that differs in manuscripts is mainly spelling and synonyms replacing synonyms. The main ideas always remain the same; anything that has been changed is minute. Also, God would not let the Bible be changed in any serious way- it is His word.

My Whole Point Is I Dont Want To See People Having There Feelings Hurt And Then Scratchers Get Mad At Each Other. This Is A Website To Share Common Interest In Programming, Lets Not Break The Unity

shadow_7283 wrote:

Lanie wrote:

My Whole Point Is I Dont Want To See People Having There Feelings Hurt And Then Scratchers Get Mad At Each Other. This Is A Website To Share Common Interest In Programming, Lets Not Break The Unity

Point taken. Sorry Lanie, I'm getting kind of sick of this post as well. I meant for my post at the top of the page to be kind of a closing, but there are still arguments about it. Basically, I'm sticking to my religion and that is all there is to it. I'm sure others would agree.

No need to say sorry you can have your own opinion, I just dont want to see people get hurt. Thats good that you are sticking to your religion no one should make you change ^_^

http://ttftwai.webs.com/apps/forums/

Mayhem wrote:

Zelda123 wrote:

2 Peter 2 and Matthew 24 talk about false prophets which is more than clear now. Revelation and Matthew 24 hold multiple more prophesies that will/are be(ing) fulfilled.

You need to be more specific.  Anyone can assert that their side is true, but you need to be able to bring evidence. 

Zelda123 wrote:

At the beginning, the Bible was God-breathed and inerrant. It has been copied by people over and over again. However, it has been preserved greatly as different manuscripts are all exactly identical. Anything that differs in manuscripts is mainly spelling and synonyms replacing synonyms. The main ideas always remain the same; anything that has been changed is minute. Also, God would not let the Bible be changed in any serious way- it is His word.

You are making the bare assertion that all bibles are the same.  This statement is *absolutely* not true.

I say again - look up the deuterocanonical books.  Entire sections of the bible that some sects include, others include them for liturgical purposes but do not use for doctrine, and others leave out completely completely.

There are also:
3 Maccabees
4 Maccabees
1 Esdras, Prayer of Manasseh, Psalm 151
Esdras(Latin Esdras)
Odes
The Apocalypse of Baruch 2 Baruch
The Letter of Baruch
Jubilees
Enoch

Which are used by some sects and not by others.

You have made an assertion as true something that is *utterly* demolished by facts, and thus called into question any assertion you make about christianity.  St Augustine must be turning in his grave.

Anything God-inspired in the Bible has remained the same and unchanged. Extra books, as listed above, that have been proven to not be God-inspired, do not change any real meanings or truths, however.

If these books have been chosen to be non-god inspired (an impossible, untrue claim, btw), why do so many legitimate Christian sects still use them?

Or are you going to write off the majority of Christains as being wrong, and claim that only you and your tiny little branch of Christianity are right?  How can you be sure?  That smacks of monumental arrogance.

Mayhem wrote:

If these books have been chosen to be non-god inspired (an impossible, untrue claim, btw), why do so many legitimate Christian sects still use them?

Or are you going to write off the majority of Christains as being wrong, and claim that only you and your tiny little branch of Christianity are right?  How can you be sure?  That smacks of monumental arrogance.

Do you know which sects use those books you listed? I'm not sure (which is why I'm asking you this) but I highly doubt the claim that the majority of Christians modify the Bible by adding extra books...

Mayhem wrote:

If these books have been chosen to be non-god inspired (an impossible, untrue claim, btw), why do so many legitimate Christian sects still use them?

Or are you going to write off the majority of Christains as being wrong, and claim that only you and your tiny little branch of Christianity are right?  How can you be sure?  That smacks of monumental arrogance.

It is not impossible for a large group of people to be wrong.

There are many signs to show that the Apocrypha/Deuterocanonical books are not Scripture, but works of man.

Not once did Jesus and his apostles ever quote from the books. In the New Testament are over 250 quotes from the Old Testament, none of which come from these books.

When Jesus referenced the Old Testament canon from the beginning to end in Luke 11:51, he did not include the books.

There are multiple errors and false teachings in the books as well. It contains several chronological and geographical errors in Baruch 1:2, Bel and the Dragon 22, and Tobit 1:4.

The false teachings stand out the most, however. Magic is mentioned in Tobias 6-8, Tobias 6:5-8, and Medes. 7. In Tobias 12:8-9, 17 and Tobias 4:11 teach of salvation by works and as a human effort. 2 Macabees 12:43 teaches of teach the giving of money as an offering for sins of the dead. There are more if you want to hear them.

Zelda123 wrote:

Mayhem wrote:

If these books have been chosen to be non-god inspired (an impossible, untrue claim, btw), why do so many legitimate Christian sects still use them?

Or are you going to write off the majority of Christains as being wrong, and claim that only you and your tiny little branch of Christianity are right?  How can you be sure?  That smacks of monumental arrogance.

It is not impossible for a large group of people to be wrong.

There are multiple errors and false teachings in the books as well. It contains several chronological and geographical errors in Baruch 1:2, Bel and the Dragon 22, and Tobit 1:4.

There are chronological errors and contradictions in the whole bible, which you choose to ignore.  So, yes, you *are* going to claim that only your sect with your differing view of the bible is correct, without admiting for any possability of error.

Zelda123 wrote:

It is not impossible for a large group of people to be wrong

I know, and (given that Christians are the single religion), I'm counting on it